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dangerousapple
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 292
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: |
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I can't speak for all language schools, only for myself. I hire teachers who are not in Taiwan, but only if they fit the requirements for legal work. I receive dozens and dozens of resumes every time I post an ad. If the applicant does not have a B.A. I will not consider him/her for the job. I have no interest in hiring someone illegally. As a side note, I also will not consider applications that are poorly written. I am continuously amazed at how little effort some people put into their resumes. I recently received a resume that contained the following words: "Hey, I'm coming back to Taiwan in June and need a job. I'll contact you when I get there." That was it! No other information except a name and a telephone number.
Yikes. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| linvestor wrote: |
| So far, it seems that what Griswald has said regarding the BA requirement in Taiwan adds further to the ongoing controversy with regards to the validity of a BA verifying the true qualification of a proper/professional teacher. |
Not exactly. The minimum educational requirements for foreign teachers here is not intended as a selection process such that those that have a degree are considered better teachers than those without. It is simply a minimum category set in an effort to justify the employment of foreigners over locals for certain jobs, and to try to set a standard of some sort.
I see very few people suggesting that a degree makes you a better teacher. The simple fact is however (and with the exception of the diploma plus TESOL option) if you don't have a degree then you don't qualify for legal employment as a teacher here in Taiwan. This does not however stop you from considering teaching in other countries which may have different requirements, or of course going back to school and getting a degree so that you do qualify for the job.
| linvestor wrote: |
| As there seems to be no clear indication, (based on the conflicting posts) I am led to believe that a person in my case with no BA simply "takes a chance on becoming hired." |
I don't see any conflicting posts on this issue. I see everyone saying exactly the same thing except for one individual who has been ranting and raving about something but has never actually produced any evidence of what he suggests. It is afterall pretty difficult to produce evidence that the earth is flat when the evidence at hand clearly shows otherwise.
| linvestor wrote: |
| As lumber jack has mentioned it is great to have responses to a posted question rather than to be told to view past posts, (even if the remarks are conflicting) as past post are just that "past" and regulations or prerequisites may have become updated since the original post. |
Of course this is a discussion forum and as such it is a place for newbies to come and ask questions. My point was simply that the taking a moment to read through past posts can provide a lot of useful information and you can then post to clarify the information that you have gleaned.
I don't agree that the previous posts are necessarily out of date. In the case of recent questions there are identical threads on the very first page of this board which indicates that previous discussions are less than a month old. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I'll repeat what I said: Many things are possible here. Not all are completely within the rules. Miya, I'm sure you have known of people who have gotten work permits with less than what is required by the government here. These are exceptions, though, not the norm. I think someone is pulling the wool over the eyes of the authorities, either the employer, employeee or both. It might be that the employer is asserting that their employee has a four year degree. It might be that the authorities don't know any better. Somebody pulled some strings. Many things are possible. However, it is clear that the rule is for work permits for foreign English teachers. |
Taoyuan Steve,
You are wrong - it is legal. No one has pulled any strings and the CLA hasn't made any mistakes.
The CLA grants ARC and work permits to diploma holders (one does not even need a TESOL certificate!) to teach EFL in Taiwan.
There are many people who only hold a diploma only and who are teaching legally in Taiwan.
I personally know people who are or have been in this situation. |
And I disagree that it is legal.
You are effectively arguing that a piece of legislation either does not exist or is being represented incorrectly here. If you want to argue that a law says such and such, then you have to produce evidence in the form of the law itself to prove it. Most are arguing an empirical reality here. We are stating what the law, in fact, says. You are countering that it isn't correct, but not quoting the legislation insodoing. You can't argue hard fact with opinion and "I have a friend who..." anecdotes. You can only counter by showing hard evidence in the form of the legislation itself. You need to show where the law states that you do not need a BA or two year diploma and a tesl cert.
Again, I disagree that your friend is totally legal and that his/her work permit was obtained in complete honesty. Many is the time I've met foreigners who assert their legality. They then tell me they are working in a kindy (upon hearing this, I know right away the ARC is bogus--kindies can't issue ARCs to foreign English teachers). I ask them to show me their ARC card. I read the company name on their card and reveal to them the name of some buxiban they've never heard of. They are most certainly not legal. I've known people who've used fake degrees. Are they legal even if they succeed in obtaining an ARC through this means? I've also heard of underqualified people obtaining work permits. It happens. I'm not going to argue that this place enforces laws and regulations with anywhere near the vigour we are used to in our home countries. Quite clearly, that isn't the case. People can use their connections, fib a little and --yes-- even pay the right people to bend rules. It happens. It also doesn't make the law, as it actually is, any less clear.
You cannot guarantee people without the qualifications laid out in the laws here will be successful in obtaining a legit work permit. You can't guarantee them a job, you certainly cannot guarantee them successful procurement of a work permit and you can't assure them they won't get apprehended and deported when authorities come calling at their workplaces. Even with the few who seemingly manage to get an ARC without meeting minimum requirements, it's irresponsible to mislead people into believing that it is commonplace and perfectly legal to obtain a work permit without a BA or diploma and tesl.
Want to disagree with what we are saying the law says? Show us the law, then. |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Taoyuan Steve:
It is legal.
Many schools legally apply for ARC and work permits for their diploma only holding teachers.
There is nothing to argue here - that's a fact.
It's LEGAL!! |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
This is really unbelievable already.
We have asked the moderators countless times to stop people from posting support for illegal activities. |
Teaching in Taiwan with only a diploma is not illegal.
| Quote: |
It's not our job to police people on this forum.
Miyazaki has been carrying on this silly game for months now. You CANNOT legally teach in Taiwan with only a 2 year diploma.
This is not a matter of opinion, this is FACT.
Please see the Work Section of Forumosa.com for more detailed information on working legally in Taiwan. |
You should not be policing these forums - they're not your forums and you're not a lawyer either. Chill out and accept that EFL teachers can teach legally in Taiwan with only a 2 year diploma - that's a fact!
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Moderators, can we PLEASE sticky something about the laws of teaching in Taiwan? Clark has quoted the legislation several times and it's unfair that we have to keep refuting Miyazaki's silliness every week.
I'm not sure what his agenda is. This used to be funny, but now it's just annoying. |
You're personal attacks here are offensive. I won't tolerate it and I've reported it to the moderators.
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| Miyazaki, saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it correct. Clark, Steve, myself and others have a lot of experience in the ESL field in Taiwan. We KNOW what the law is and are only trying to help people. If I had even a 1% doubt in what I was saying, I wouldn't be sharing a view with someone that could potentially change the direction of their lives. That's the thing with this issue: It's NOT a view or an opinion. It's the law and it's fact. You cannot work legally in Taiwan with only a 2 year diploma. |
Again, you, Steve and Clark are wrong. The CLA provides ARC and work permits for 2 year diploma holders wishing to teach EFL in Taiwan - that's a fact. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Again, you, Steve and Clark are wrong. The CLA provides ARC and work permits for 2 year diploma holders wishing to teach EFL in Taiwan - that's a fact. |
So if it's a fact you should be able to prove it! So let's see it.
Show us any official document that vindicates your position. I have posted a lot of regulations etc. that show your position to be wrong. Now it's your turn to prove your case! |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
There are many people who only hold a diploma only and who are teaching legally in Taiwan.
I personally know people who are or have been in this situation. |
Earlier, you said that there are "thousands." What is your source for that fact? And are all of them working legally?
Do you know each of those "thousands" of people in Taiwan who are working with such minimal qualifications? Do you know that they are all legal? How do you know that? Sources? |
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Serious_Fun
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1171
Location: terra incognita
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
You're [sic] personal attacks here are offensive. I won't tolerate it and I've reported it to the moderators. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
Taoyuan Steve:
It is legal.
Many schools legally apply for ARC and work permits for their diploma only holding teachers.
There is nothing to argue here - that's a fact.
It's LEGAL!! |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Show us the law, then. |
 
I've given you a lot of unearned credibility with regards to your claims that people you have known have secured work permits without the normally required qualifications. I've done so because I know it's done in some cases. However, it simply will not do to generalize from these cases that such exceptions are the law or that when this is done it's legal. It isn't. The law is very clear and has been posted repeatedly on these boards. That some schools in the sticks can sometimes get around regulations and get permits for underqualified foriegn teachers does not make the practice legal. It doesn't mean that anyone who lacks the basic requirements for a work permit should just get on a plane and come on over.
Getting an ARC without the required credentials is a form of working illegally. Let's be clear on this. It's probably a step above working on a tourist visa in terms of security, but let's not delude ourselves or others about the legitimacy of such an arrangement. If you do indeed manage to get a permit under these circumstances, your employer likely will have gone to bat for you and somehow got around the regulations--either through working connections, the ignorance of the people checking the credentials or something similar. People who don't possess the minimum requirement for an ARC as a foreign teacher cannot be assured they will successfully be able to get a legit job or a work permit. It's therefore irresponsible to suggest that they can.
Like I've said all along, many things are possible in Taiwan. Not all of them are legal or adviseable. It's best not to recommend people come here and try to get work permits without the mimimum credentials require by law. You can't guarantee they will be successful even some of the time. |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Again, the minimum requirement to teach EFL in Taiwan is a 2 year college diploma.
Yesterday, in fact, I brought this point up with a Canadian friend over lunch and he also disagrees with you.
He is now on his 3rd job here in Taiwan and has not had any problems securing legal TEFL'ing work with his 2 year college diploma in Hotel Hospitality and Mangement.
His roommate, also a Canadian, has had no problems getting an ARC and work permit - legally - with only a 2 year college diploma in business.
Folks, this is not new - there are many people teaching legally in Taiwan with only 2 year college diploma.
The CLA will accept applicants who only hold 2 year diplomas.
My friend is currently having his diploma and transcripts and other paper work processed by the CLA for his work permit and ARC.
Teaching EFL in Taiwan with only a 2 year diploma is completely legal. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
Hi,
Again, the minimum requirement to teach EFL in Taiwan is a 2 year college diploma.
Yesterday, in fact, I brought this point up with a Canadian friend over lunch and he also disagrees with you.
He is now on his 3rd job here in Taiwan and has not had any problems securing legal TEFL'ing work with his 2 year college diploma in Hotel Hospitality and Mangement.
His roommate, also a Canadian, has had no problems getting an ARC and work permit - legally - with only a 2 year college diploma in business.
Folks, this is not new - there are many people teaching legally in Taiwan with only 2 year college diploma.
The CLA will accept applicants who only hold 2 year diplomas.
My friend is currently having his diploma and transcripts and other paper work processed by the CLA for his work permit and ARC.
Teaching EFL in Taiwan with only a 2 year diploma is completely legal. |
The law, mate. Show us the law that says what you assert is correct. I don't doubt that some people manage to get ARCs who don't meet the normal requirements, but these are exceptions. Usually, in these cases, someone asserts this credential is a BA and, because of guanxi or ignorance of what a western two year diploma is, the government functionaries accept it as such. It isn't legal at all. Ask your friend if he has been turned down for jobs because of his lack of a degree. Ask him if he works for an unknown company, in a kindergarten or out in the sticks.
The "your friend said such and such" line of argument is a little tired now. Quote from the regulations, please.
Last edited by TaoyuanSteve on Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Two quick questions for you Miyazaki:
1. Where are you located? According to your posts on the Japan forum at Daves you are located in Japan. This is also what your profile states. Yet in your most recent post you seem to be suggesting that you are in Taiwan. Are you living and working in Taiwan or Japan?
2. Have you personally obtained a work permit in Taiwan based only upon a two year diploma certificate and no other documentation? Surely you must have this experience as otherwise you are basing your assertions purely on what others have told you as there is no regulatory support for what you claim.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Yesterday, in fact, I brought this point up with a Canadian friend over lunch and he also disagrees with you. |
So by your logic the fact he disagrees with us makes him right We disagree with him too so does this make us right also?
| Miyazaki wrote: |
Folks, this is not new - there are many people teaching legally in Taiwan with only 2 year college diploma.
The CLA will accept applicants who only hold 2 year diplomas. |
OK so if the CLA so readily do this then why is it that their own information that they put out on the subject states otherwise?
If it is standard practice for the CLA to do this then where is the regulations that back up the practice?
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Teaching EFL in Taiwan with only a 2 year diploma is completely legal. |
Yes you keep saying that but you have not produced one ounce of evidence - you just keep saying that 'you have a friend...'
The very fact that something is legal means that it is stated in law - so where is this stated in the law? |
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linvestor
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: The controversy continues |
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My thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts with regards to the controversy of having a BA. It certainly looks like things are heating up from reading the comments. I did not want to create any wars or to offend anyone out there. I am just looking for a job and wanted to know what the requirements were.
On this note, I would like to mention that I have seen school postings for teachers who qualify for employment with only a college diploma - yes they are schools on the island of Taiwan. I suppose that the school year must be begining soon and that some schools are eager to fill the void in there teaching staff. In fact I have just been contacted by a school that so far seems to be content with the fact that I only have a college diploma (of course I also have TESOL/TOEFL and this might be helpful also).
I am not one to argue the validity of the laws in Taiwan nor do I wish to break any. I simply want to find employment with the skills that I have to offer, it looks like there is hope.
This issue with regards to having a BA is a very controversial issue indeed, but someone did mention that, "Taiwan is a place where anything can happen."
Once again thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Clark,
isn't it evident enough that Miyazaki has not one but two 'friends' who are proof that a college diploma is all that is needed to teach legally in Taiwan. I am sure that it is more than coincidence that the only two people of whom he can refer happen to be roommates. And of course in some circles two people does infer 'many'. It is evident merely because I say it is so.
Damn. Where is the sarcasm bold when you really need it? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Ki you are right.
Clearly what people who don't qualify for legal work in Taiwan tell you in a bar at night is far more reliable information than the government regulations on the matter and the experience of people who have lived and worked here for years.
You could probably use this icon to indicate sarcasm. |
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