Job Discussion Forums

[bearcanada]

There have been some threads on this board looking for information on the higher-salary teaching jobs in China, but not too much in the way of response.

High-paying jobs do indeed exist, and I thought I might offer a few comments that may be helpful. This isn't exhaustive by any means but it may help you to focus your thoughts.

It isn't difficult to earn RMB 250,000 or 300,000 by teaching English in China. RMB 400,000 is a bit more difficult, and may mean having to work full-time.

We used to have a saying in the management consulting industry that it wasn't difficult to earn $200,000 a year as a consultant. You just had to be the kind of person who was worth $200,000 a year.

That wasn't meant to be smart. The comment contains a lot of truth, and applies in part to the teaching market in China. It does not apply as much to the traditional classroom jobs because the salary scales are often fixed and not negotiable to a significant degree. But it does apply very much to the best of the traditional jobs and to all the other opportunities.

The few discussions I've seen on this topic have been backward because they've begun by focusing on the jobs, and that's not the most useful place to start. Think first about yourself, then the students you will teach, and then the jobs you might seek and/or find.

Let's begin with you. Specifically, how smart you are, how educated you are, how experienced you are, how fluent and literate you are, how connected you are, how old you are, how white you are, how flaky you are, how nice you are, how presentable you are, how responsible you are, how determined you are, and, maybe, how lucky you are.

So, let's say you're 23 years old and still have braces on your teeth, you're a guy and you think pony tails, earrings and tattoos are cool (for you, not for her), you call everyone 'hey, dude', and a measurable portion of your attention is directed to short skirts and a bit of substance now and again. I don't want to unduly discourage you but how would you frankly assess your own chances of landing one of those plum jobs?

Let's talk about the students. You already know about the students in the elementary and middle schools, so let's look at the universities and other opportunities. The students you encounter at the lower levels encompass the average. However, just as in Western countries, that is no longer true at the university level. The students you encounter there will generally be the best ones, those who studied hardest, and probably those whose English is better than average. The educational system in every country does an effective job of selecting upward.

The university students will be more of a challenge. Not from classroom discipline but from the need for you to be more competent. They may know 'go, went and gone' better than you do. They will know when you're faking, and they will know when you've made a mistake. On average, your students will be at least as smart as you are, and maybe smarter. And, just like you when you were at university, they may think they're even smarter than that. This is where respect for you begins to be based on competence, and where adult personal qualities become essentials.

Let's look at the International Schools, those that cater to the children of expatriates resident in China. These expats are from the top levels in their home countries and their children are already effectively streamed. They're a pleasure to teach, but there is much more accountability and responsibility here than in a standard classroom. These schools can accommodate only the children seated at their desks, not those standing at the blackboard.

Then we can look at the English Training Schools - the 'business' end of teaching English. Some of these companies teach a wide range of students, from McDonald's clerks coming in off the street and paying for their own lessons, to senior corporate officers. Teaching jobs for the lower-level students can be easy to find but they don't pay anything exceptional.

The private tutoring and small-class sessions for the higher-level corporate staff and the executives will pay much more if you can handle them. These people tend to be older, maybe 35 to 50, very well educated, earning very high salaries and are the cream of the crop. These are the people who used to be the bright university students, and the best of those, who have risen to the top in the real world. Or at least, are rising to the top. Can you handle them?

Can you fit into that environment and earn their respect? Are you able to assess their specific language needs and hand-tailor tutorials and lessons for each individual to address those needs? In a conversation with one of your students, what will you talk about? The intrinsic faults of the Japanese banking system? The inherent instability of wireless IT networks? Skirts and beer? Mexican vs. Columbian?

Let's look at the private assignments where your appointment is directly with a local company instead of through the Training Firms. The students are essentially the same as above, at the same level - again, part of the cream of the crop of 1.3 billion people. They're determined, very capable, educated and smart. They also usually know quite a bit of English already and are capable of carrying at least a half-decent conversation. Again, are you able to assess their specific shortcomings and needs, and design lessons and programs specifically for them?

With these last two layers, you can assume that your students will be better than you at almost everything else, so you will have to be better than them at language if you want a place there. It ain't all bad. You may be young, but if you're really quite presentable and a genuinely nice person, and if you know your English very well, and if it's apparent that you really care about your students, and if you work very hard to excel, you might be welcome anywhere. If you're a pretty girl, it may be 50% easier.

So where are the good jobs and how do you go about finding one?

The universities in China do not pay at the high end of the scale at the moment. It would seem that this will have to change, but I have no idea whether it will. They do offer a more intellectual environment and other advantages. It may be possible at some universities to double up on your teaching hours and get yourself to RMB 10,000 or so per month. That won't make you rich, but with free housing and all the other benefits you'll feel rich enough.

The International Schools, those that teach children of expatriates, will pay RMB 20,000 to 25,000 a month. The positions are not plentiful, and only the best teachers will be considered for them.

The respectable Training School chains, like Wall Street or Oxford English, will pay up to RMB 18,000 a month for their top teachers for full-time work, and anywhere from RMB 200 to 400 per hour for small contract assignments. Almost all of the smaller chains will pay RMB 200 per hour and some will pay 250 . If you can get 20 hours a week of steady work, that's RMB 15,000 to 20,000 a month, and that's not bad. But again, for the best jobs at the best firms, you have to be the best kind of person.

Many of the large multi-nationals or foreign-invested companies hire full-time English trainers and typically pay RMB 15,000 to 20,000 per month. Usually you will spend half of your time tutoring individuals and teaching classes, and the other half preparing lessons.

Many local Chinese companies (of almost any size) will also hire full-time or part-time English teachers at a rate about equivalent to (or even better than) the multi-nationals. You can safely ignore those who want to pay only RMB 100 per hour. You might get a full-time English job or (and more easily) two or three smallish appointments like this, but it's a good way to live.

And, there are many individuals who will pay RMB 200 per hour for private tutoring from a good teacher. These may need only one or two hours a week so you would need many more of them to fill your time and give you a good living. Or, you can find ten people at RMB 1,000 per month each and give them one-tenth of your time. Many people can afford to pay that much.

The downside of working on your own is the travel time and cancellations of private lessons. You don't want to spend one hour of travel time to and from a one-hour lesson, and cancellations of private lessons will run about 30% because people have jobs with travel demands and other urgencies. A contract for fixed hours for whomever happens to be handy is the best solution.

That is where some of the good jobs are. How do you go about getting one? For a start, keep in mind that the best jobs are never advertised, partly because they don't need to be, and partly because they don't exist yet. Many great teaching jobs develop from a bit of tutoring of one person in a company, leading to a few classes, then a half-day job and then full-time. There is an almost unlimited number of Chinese firms that would hire you to teach English if you could get an introduction and a bit of a start. This is the greatest untapped market in the country and could probably absorb 200,000 teachers.

Everybody thinks of the multi-nationals and goes there first. So firms like Intel, Siemens, Philips, already have 37,000 resumes on file and even if you drop on their stoop on the day they need a teacher they will still feel compelled to pull some resumes and make you compete. If you know someone who knows someone and can get an introduction, that will help you. It's the same in any country. The large foreign-invested firms are the same - lots of attention, many resumes on file. If you're determined and persistent, it can pay off, but the wait can be a long one.

The local companies are more susceptible to personal approaches because fewer people approach them. But for all of these jobs you want to keep in mind (and I know I risk deeply offending some of you) that they are not for backpackers and flakes. If you want to earn RMB 300,000 a year, the work is there for you. All you need is to be the kind of person who is worth 300,000 a year.

For the private lessons, look for people at or near the top of any company, any office, any department. You need only one or two for a start that can develop into something fine. Often, if you try, you will meet someone who will make a few introductions for you that will snowball. Your marketing and business development is up to you. You just need to keep trying until you find something that works for you. If you don't give up, you will always find it. That's a law.

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[prof]

I couldn't make it through your post. Call it the "snooze" factor.

With the increase in internet traffic, China (and other places) are seen as "comfy" even when they aren't.

No one in China is going to make much money long term.

Short term? Sure. Work at 20 different locations.

Long term? That 4th location you go to, when tired, will find a ready and able replacement for you to earn that site's salary.

PROF

[bearcanada]

I know teachers at the international schools who are earining RMB 25,000 per month and have been there for several years.

I have friends in Shanghai with full-time jobs at mulit-nationals or foreign companies who are earning RMB 18,000 and 20,000 per month and have been in the same place for 5 years and 7 years.

I know many people doing free-lance corporate work, especially in Shanghai who earn RMB 300,000 to 400,000, and have been doing that for years, with only one or two employer contracts.

And I'm in contact with sores of others who have easily been earning upwards of RMB 200,000 for years. They are all happy, and I've never heard of anyone losing a job because they are too tired.

If that isn't happening to you, I'm sorry. But like the article said, all you need is to be worth the money.

.

[prof]

[Leon Purvis]

You're posting from LaLa land. Am I right?

[prof]

I'm posting from Shanghai.

BearCanada...?

Let's see.............................................................

[China.Pete]

Bearcanada,

I read your post here carefully, as it reflects some of my own longer-term career planning. As usual, your comments are knowledgeable and to the point. And while I don't have all that much to add to your analysis per se, I do have some actual experiences in several of the areas you outlined. Based on those experiences, I would say that it may not always be appropriate to apply western management principles to a Chinese environment.

1. "The educational system in every country does an effective job of selecting upward."

Not, apparently, in China. Currently, there are numerous private, for-profit universities opening up. Some of these are universities in name only. They will accept ANYONE whose parent can afford to pay the tuition - even high school dropouts. Failing several or all of their courses may not necessarily disqualify them for a degree, although it will undoubtedly raise the cost. Even many public universities, including some elite ones, are known to accept a few students, either informally or as part of a special program or cohort, who do not meet the normal entry requirements. Believe me, I've taught many of them.

2. "[Professional] students are educated and smart... know quite a bit of English already."

At one of the better - read, very expensive - training schools where I've worked, the students were nearly all doctors, software engineers, marketing managers, etc. Some had graduated from the most elite universities in China, such as Tsingua, Peking, or Renmin. Almost without exception, the students' English was not notably good, which is why I assume they were spending so much of their money to improve it. But the school DID have decent internationally-edited textbooks, and with several years' experience teaching in Asia and a TEFL Certificate I went to town.

Unfortunately, they were among the most difficult students to teach that I have ever encountered. Let one class serve as an example of what I mean. A young woman made it known to me that as a graduate of a good university, she was accustomed to understanding everything said in class (in Chinese), but that she could not understand everything said in my class (in English). Now, "I can't understand the teacher" is a normal complaint in nearly every initial English training class; the conviction that this is somehow unacceptable (as opposed to just a stage in the learning process) is unique in my experience to China. Of course, the management - read, salesmen - at the branches know nothing about how English-learning works either. They only know that the students (actually, one or two students) are complaining. I was quickly replaced.

(My replacement could well have been less qualified than myself. But this would not necessarily have been a drawback, as his/her lack of ability in teaching English would probably have been less disruptive to the students' comfort zone. Indeed, a couple of students, in an apparent effort to alleviate the discomfort of their having to converse in English, volunteered to spend class time helping me with my Chinese!)

I could go on and on. An ambitious young executive in a foreign ad agency wanted to change her private teacher, because she "didn't have time for the homework" that he gave her. He had a PhD in English but apparently no TEFL experience (based upon her description of his approaches to teaching). I outlined three learning alternatives for her, and explained the trade-offs between the amount of personal effort required and relevance to her actual work with each. I never heard back from her.

Then there was the CEO of a major Chinese company. I never actually met the man in person. I was brought to his offices in a chauffered black sedan, where I met the secretary who had arranged my employment, based on my qualifications. I spent a long time waiting in his well-appointed ante-room, while (I was to find out later) the secretary screamed at the contact person in the training center by phone. It seems what he (or perhaps his secretary) really wanted was a westerner who could speak Chinese. Why he/she didn't simply ask for same in the first place is best explained by someone with more experience with Chinese culture than I have.

3. "Many of the large multi-national... companies hire full-time English trainers and typically pay RMB 15,000 to 20,000 per month."

My own experience was closer to 7,000 RMB, but that was admittedly in a smaller, lower-cost-of-living area.

If there is a moral to all of this, it's probably that to obtain well-paid employment in China, as in the west, it would be a good idea to be really well-networked, not to mention totally tuned into their cultural and everyday realities. Problem is, approaching this objective from a western management perspective of value (how educated you are, how experienced you are, etc.) may actually be counterproductive in getting and keeping such jobs in China. I could even argue, as I did parenthetically above, that relative incompetance may actually be an asset for many westerners working in present-day China, especially if the result more accurately meets with the expectations Chinese have of the western English teacher.

[prof]

If "bearcanada" is real and not a fraud, let's see him/her come up with some real companies!

Shanghai:.........................................????????????????????????

[Roger]

I would also say that bearcanada is relying too much on hearsay and on the Shanghai-based freelancers among his acquaintances (he is not, if I remember correctly, engaged in teaching in China).
Yes, by all means, what he says bears a resemblance to reality: it is thoroughly true to SOME DEGREE - that you could make 200'000 a year (that works out to less than 20'000 a month).
If that kind of life appeals to you...
...long commutes in stuffed-to-the-rafters buses or in a cab that's crawling along the Bund in the rush hour...and the constant threat of losing that lucrative part-time job that earns you the better part of your monthly income...because your students are fickle, and they can afford to be.

And it's also true that those who pay such fantastic rates rarely excel at their study; they have for years been indoctrinated with the idea that they learnt Chinese from native speakers, and they can learn English as easily from an English speaker...a fantastic delusion that many FTs themselves help maintain in the minds of their learners.

The really gifted students learn before they leave college, and then they avoid any formal and organised learning setting precisely because it stifles and straitjackets their minds.

Has bearcanada ever heard of laws and regulations that govern thisw province of the labour market? Freelancing is not officially recognised as a legal way to make money in China; it is currently widely tolerated but that could change at any moment.
And if you legally earn such westernised salaries you stand to pay a goodly portion of them to the taxman!

[william wallace]

The first thing that strikes me about your original post is the high degree of idealism and required serendipity. Sure, If you put together a 25 year old extrovert prodigy, who speaks 7 of the top world languages, has a Master's in Linguistics (input any high level degree), a charismatic personality, the stature of a model and....sure that person will rise to the top, but that's a given!

big companies do NOT necessarily pay what you think they ought to pay.I was freelancing for 8 years, and now am burnt out and in need of a change.Part of that burning out factor comes from all the hastles of tracking down a sweek 200-400 RMB an hour contract,nurturing it, and going on to get another-Then you loose the first one...and it just goes on and on...Being in taxi's for 3-4 hours a day; leaving the house at 6:30 AM, having your dinner at X pub at 10PM, before going home and preparing for the next days lesson, and going to bed at 1AM,but sure you make 20,000,maybe even 25,000-30,000, but you burn out, even when it works out that you're getting a pay in hand 6-7 times a month. So, you start taking longer vacations, fewer contracts,becoming more intolerant- The bottom line-You start loosing money.
I've taught for about 10-15 Fortune 500 companies, and many that offer big stable contracts (you'd need to be able to issue official reciepts) will hire their own experts from within. I've seen some of these big contracts go to lawyers and MBAs, so add those qualifications to the Master's of linguistics, and while we're at it a degree in Computer Science- Then the market's yours!
That's why I'm aiming at Taiwan or Korea for a stable 12,000-16,000RMB per month with ONE job to focus on.I find anyone that espouses what you're saying seems shiny and new either to ESL or at least ESL in China-With all due respect! But...
Good Luck

[bearcanada]

This is a most curious board. People write in to ask for information on positions that pay more than the average, so some information is provided and what happens?

All the losers immediately crawl out of the woodwork to tell you why it can't be done. The fact that people are already doing it, and have been for years, is of no apparent consequence. Why should facts be permitted to interfere with opinions?

Some of the subsequent posts on this thread make the most idiotic and asinine statements I could imagine. We have 'The Prof' telling us nobody can make money in China long-term, because his attitude prevents him from obtaining employment even short-term. It was the same in his home country, which is why he came to China in the first place. Right, "Professor"?

You wanted company names as "proof" that I wasn't a "fraud". What a stupid request. How would that information help you, exactly? If I tell you that someone has been teaching English full-time at Intel for the past 7 years, what, precisely, will you do with that information? Go to Intel and ask them to fire the guy and hire you instead? If you want a job, you go to someone who needs a teacher, not to the person who already has one.

We have Roger telling us, so help me God, that ' the gifted students avoid formal learning' because it straitjackets their minds. Roger, I can't imagine a comment more completely absurd and stupid than this one. He also shares the wisdom that 'those who pay high rates never excel'. What total BS. And, of course, the only way it's possible to make any money is to spend hours on a bus that is stuffed to the rafters with smelly people. No other alternative.

Not only that, on an earlier post from a couple of years back, there was dear Roger boasting to everyone precisely about how he was making so much money teaching English in China. Now, two years later, it can't be done. Roger will argue any side of any argument, so long as it's the other one.

And of course, Roger spent his time 'under constant threat' of losing his good jobs. Really? Roger, this may be a big surprise to you, but a good employee is seldom under constant threat of losing anything. It is the lousy employees, the losers, the ones with attitudes, the incompetent, who are under the constant threat you mention. They don't think you're very literate (and you aren't), they don't think you're very good (you know better than we), and they cancel your contract and hire someone better. But that's just being 'fickle', isn't it? It could be something else, Roger. Think hard.

Roger, do you know what the expression 'sour grapes' means? Remember the fox who so badly wanted the grapes but couldn't reach them? So he walked away and told himself 'ah, they were sour anyway'. Just like you now. "If that kind of life appeals to you....." Exactly. I wanted it but couldn't get it, so it wasn't worth having anway.

Then we have William Wallace who tells us that only a genius of great proportion could ever earn a good salary teaching English in China, and that anything else is idealistic and depending on serendipity. Listen, William, anyone who has taught for 15 Fortune 500 companies and couldn't keep a job with one of them is a loser. If you're burnt out from chasing contracts, you might want to ask yourself why you can't keep any of them. Like all losers, you want to blame China, the culture, the people, the companies, anyone but yourself. Go home. You must have had a hard life, leaving the house at 6:30 every morning, spending 3-4 hours in taxis, not getting to sleep until midnight. What horseshit.


According to William, you now need to be a lawyer and an MBA too, to have any chance. No, William, you don't have to be a lawyer or an MBA. It's enough to not be stupid. And according to you, anyone who thinks there really are good jobs out there is just 'new and shiny', right? You're a fool.

There are hundreds of people in Shanghai alone who have been teaching at the international schools or for international companies for years. RMB 250,000 to 350,000. Good, stable, well-paying jobs, with no particular difficulties. The common denominators among all those job-holders are the following:
1) They are not flakes
2) They are not losers
3) They are highly literate in English
4) They are good teachers
5) They are mature and responsible
6) They work hard
7) They are professional

.

[Malsol]

To our friend Bearcanada -

I invite you to come to China and get one of those great jobs. Then tell us all about it.

Until then, you are just another ....

[bearcanada]

You don't know where I am or what I do. And this isn't about me. It's about you.

.

[Malsol]

No it is not about me.

It is about you!

I am not unhappy with my job in China.

I am very unhappy with much of what you have written here and elsewhere.

You have no first hand China experience but you pretend to be a China expert.

[bearcanada]

Malsol, you are derailing the thread by starting a fruitless debate.

Again, you don't know where I am or what I do. You are in no position to claim that I have no first-hand experience in China, whether in teaching or anything else.

The point of this thread relates to those who get the good jobs and those who whine that they don't exist, won't last, require too high a sacrifice, will burn you out..........

.