Job Discussion Forums

[Malsol]

Bearcanada -

The point is that you have little or no credibility.

You know little or nothing about which you speak.

Instead of criticizing those who speak from experience, get some first hand experience and then maybe you can speak with some authority.

We all know that you have no personal knowledge but just repeat second hand information or even make it up.

I have read much of what you have written and it does not correspond to the reality in China.

[Malsol]

Bearcanada -

YOU ARE A RECRUITER!

What else do we need to know?

[Malsol]

Bearcanada has a web site.

He has never posted one of his imaginary high paying jobs on his own web site.

[Malsol]

FROM Bearcanada's web site:

45 University Positions Available in Zhengzhou for August, 2006
Monthly salary in RMB: Salary will depend on relevant qualifications and teaching experience and will be in the range from 3800 RMB to 5200 RMB per month; plus accommodation, bills and staff bus.

[bearcanada]

This is an aside, and puts me in the curious position of helping to derail my own thread, but I thought it might be instructional.

Those of you who have studied logic already know the standard methods of derailing a discussion by deflecting attention to extraneous and irrelevant matters.

(1) The first is what we call 'ad hominem' attacks. If you can't defend against the argument, attack the person who made it. The mental process is: "I don't agree with you, so therefore you know nothing."

(2) Pretend to speak for the world, as in "We all know that.....". That gives your argument a semblance of authority borrowed from outside.

(3) Make outrageous claims against someone, in the hope of baiting them into defending themselves and thereby avoiding the facts of the discussion in question. Things like, "You know little or nothing...", or "...second-hand information or even make it up."

(4) Establish yourself as the person who sets the rules for a debate, and try hard to choose a rule that your debating opponent cannot qualify for, such as saying, "You aren't a mother, so you have no authority to speak about mothers." It sounds legitimate, but it's really just nonsense. Anyone can have accurate information on a topic without being a member of a select group.

(5) As much as possible, avoid the facts or the statements presented and try to introduce irrelevant topics such as "He has a website...."

(6) Above all, you want to avoid bringing yourself under attack, so just make general claims like "It doesn't correspond to reality....". That way, you might begin an entirely new discussion and never have to face the issues in the original debate.

And, for Malsol's information, yes I (with a Chinese FAO partner) do some recruiting for a few good Universities and others. But we're picky. We offer contracts to roughly 5% of the teachers who submit credentials to us. And yes, I am qualified to evaluate English teachers, and no I don't have to present my credentials to you. It is true I have never posted one of the high-paying jobs on my website. It wasn't necessary. Can you guess why?

Back to the topic of the thread. There are indeed many teachers in China who have fine, permanent jobs and are earning serious incomes. And there are those who don't and who whine that it isn't possible.

If you don't already know this, just pick up the phone and call the international schools in any large city, or the large multi-nationals or foreign-invested companies in any city and ask them about their jobs and teachers and rates of pay.

These are facts you can easily verify all by yourself without debate. And, while you are busy verifying the facts, ask these people about your chances of filling one of those plum jobs. After you do this, feel free to ignore everything I wrote in my first post.

.

[william wallace]

my FORMER friend here in Beijing is a recruiter, and he has all the necessary skills.He could lie right to my face(so-called "friend" at the time), and he buttered up people so much so, that I think they ended up with high cholesterol. He knew I had tried a few times to open a school, and had just moved into working and examining IELTS, so over a leisurely drink in his pad, he started hypothetically asking me how I would open an IELTS school, and 6-8 months later he was partnering a school very much like what I had told him.That is when I realized not only do the Chinese prioritize relationships by what they can gain.

[China.Pete]

The OP seems to have a really good understanding of how to get and keep good jobs - in the west. The difficulty arises when he sends people off to practice this in China. Then, when his advice is met with various real-life experiences, he seems to attack the message board and the personal qualities ("stupid," "losers," etc.) of those posting them. This is a curious position to take for someone who subsequently claims to put logic and reason ahead of personal considerations (ad hominem).

Look, as someone who HAS most if not all of the qualifications mentioned on this thread, I have found that they are of little help with many of the challenges we face in China. That's what living and working in a country as foreign as China is about - and that's what this board is all about. If the OP would just take this board for what it is, and stop focusing on the perceived imperfections of the various human beings represented on it, he might learn enough to actually make some of his advice a little more practical.

[bearcanada]

Gentlemen, if it pleases all of you to tell yourselves that I have never been in China nor ever lived in China nor ever taught English in China, then please continue. As I said somewhere above, you know nothing about me so why persist in your assumptions?

China.Pete, you made some some true and useful points in your post above. There are reasons why things go wrong with contracts and assignments and classes; if we sort those out, it really is possible to avoid most of the (genuine) troubles people have had.

For one thing, women make far better English students than men. If you are doing private lessons, (or classes) look for the girls. As a general rule they care more, they really want to learn to speak well and write well, if they like you they are not fickle, and they will persist for a long time. Men just want to learn grammar and drink beer. (And for goodness' sake, yes I already know that if you teach in a school you cannot select the gender of your students. We aren't talking about schools here.)

For another, if you have a class consisting of even 3 or 4 people, those with the lowest English level will soon find reasons to be busy, will drop out, and your class (and maybe your contract) will collapse. If you know how to evaluate the levels at the start, and how to design a winning formula, things can go smoothly for a long time. For private teaching, if you mix levels you are likely dead.

And so on. You made some very intelligent points in your post, and many of the frustrations you expressed have been experienced by many people, not only those who post on this board. I sympathise completely, but what is necessary is a better business model, not a tirade against the Chinese mentality or culture (and you did not do this, but others do).

Some posters are so eager to tell me my positions don't reflect reality, but maybe it's their business model that doesn't reflect the reality of China - which they all know so much about while I know nothing.

If you're having trouble, that means something is wrong. It may be that something is wrong with China, but if I have trouble, that isn't the first place I would look. I look to myself first, and try to be sure that I am not in any way responsible for my own difficulties. And this may not be any kind of moral failing or character fault. Again, the wrong 'business model' or an incomplete one, will kill you just as surely as anything else.

Look at Wall Street for an example. We all know that travel time is a huge drain on us. Wall Street doesn't travel; if you want a class, you go to them. Yes, they lose some business, but that model is still hugely successful. We know that cancellations can be a big drain - 30% or more - so if you cancel, maybe someone else attends. They have many ways to ensure payment and to maintain their revenue.

It's the same with any business. If you do things right, then everything works. To the extent that you don't, things go badly.

.

[Malsol]

Like I said above, I am satisfied with my job and experiences in China, save and except the occasional FAO.

I have problems with recruiters like Bearcanada who do not exhibit any real knowledge of the real situation on the ground in China.

Keep telling yourself that we know nothing about you but every time you post we know more about how much you do not know.

Call everyone here a loser if that eases your mind and creates a defense that allows you to justify yourself but we DO know you.

[jammish]

Bearcanada is perfectly right. It is quite possible to earn the sort of sums he mentions... One example being a certain school with branches all around China, which specialises in the teaching of EAP. They only choose the very best ESL teachers for their positions though, and ideally people who have MAs in linguistics.

Equally for international schools, you will usually need to be qualified to teach in your own country.

[Malsol]

[prof]

Good work.

[Malsol]

When you maintain two handles here at Dave's, one to make outlandish claims, and another to praise yourself, eventually you trip yourself up.

[jammish]

How did the two posts contradict themselves? Besides, they are, in fact, only written under one handle (Jammish).

Both posts stated that 5-8000 is perfectly liveable, but there are full time positions paying a lot more than that for those with QTS or who have an MA in the likes of linguistics...

[william wallace]

Folks, we've beaten this rotting horse far too many times on these forums. Yes, you can make 20,000 RMB in a month, but let's see you do that for 6 months strait; I bet you won't be able to keep up the pace and/or the quality of instruction.
Cheers