Job Discussion Forums

[sidjameson]

How acceptable is it for a foreigner to break the laws and social norms of the country that he resides in?

I have pondered this for a long time. Simply put, in England I felt I was part of a society. I helped make the laws (by my consent) and I helped change the laws(by my resistence)
As examples; I refused to pay the unfair "poll tax" in the late 80's along with many. We broke the law, but by doing so got the law changed. In England I lived with my girlfriend, so contributing to the change in social attitudes towards marriage and what is considered acceptable behaviour.

But I always felt very strongly that whilst visiting another country one should follow their standards and not one's own. I wouldn't dream of offending a Malaysian by deep kissing my girlfriend in public for example. In Thailand I stand for the king. In the UK I don't.

So what about when one lives in a foreign land? Is there ever a time when one can start to participate in the evolution of that country's norms and values?

[PAULH]

[Yawarakaijin]

One thing that has always intrigued me is how much western societies have adapted to immigrants and how for the most part its widely been accepted. Now of course we could all argue over how much it has been accepted and whether or not the changes have been positive or negative but they have taken place and thats not the point of my post.

I imagine Japan has adapted to some western values as well but what interests me are the reactions one gets when one suggest trying to affect change here or in other non-western cultures.

Japanese male (naturalized citizen) applies for a job in his local police force in the US, Canada or probably any european country.

Results: If he is qualified he gets the job. In some countries he may even
get hired quicker.

If anyone was to even suggest that he wasnt qualified because
he wasnt born here or couldnt possible "understand" the
population he was to police. That person would immediatly
be labelled a racist and denounced.

Any foreigner becomes a naturalized Japanese citizen, lets say he/she was a police officer back in his home country, asks to join the Japanese police force.

Result: There isnt any. The post is unable to be held by a non-japanese

What percentage of the Japnaese population even believes this
persons human rights have even been marginally infringed upon?
I would say practically nil.

A fair amount of the ex-pat community simply doesnt care.
Oh well, its Japan we have no right to force them to change.
Theirs is a centuries old culture we have no right to interfere.


Now just in case anyone gets the wrong idea as to which way I lean politically, I love the fact that Canada/US/Europe is so open and for the most part some of our laws have been adapted to make immigrants more comfortable.
Exactly why is it when we resist change or an adaptation to our laws to placate others we are simply labelled racist? When anyone takes Asian, African or Middle Eastern countries to task over there systems we are told to just pipe down, we dont have a right to affect change. There sure seems to be a double standard.

[PAULH]

I will also add that you cant legislate peoples thinking and atitudes. People like Debito Arudo have fought Japanese bureaucracy all the way up to the High Court and even brought japanese racism to the attention of the united Nations special inspector, but unless people here actually believe that what they are doing is wrong nothing will change. The onsen owner still didnt think he was doing anything wrong by restricting access to four Japanese people to a public facility.

You now have laws on the books that forbid certain types of discrimination and racism etc, will other forms still exist. There is actually no law on the books that a person can not be discriminated against when walking into a bar or renting a house etc and many local governments are loathe to pass a local ordinance. You have widespread discrimination in Japanese universities. My old university is now slugging it out on a Labor tribunal, the plaintiff is a Japanese university teacher sacked from her job fighting discriminatory laws.

You can not make people unracist in their thinking here, and in a country like Japan where 98% of the population is the same ethnicity, old habits die hard. Even Shintaro Ishihara comes out with a racist taunt every month but has widespread support.

[sidjameson]

Maybe I didnt explain myself well in the OP, but having re read it I dont think so:)

My post isnt about whats wrong with Japan or how much it can or cant be changed.

My question is more of an existential one of the human condition and man's place in society. In this context; man's desire to improve his surroundings and his relationship to the society he finds himself in.

In England I helped break social rules and norms or I was at least part of thr never ending struggle between competing ideas. I wore an ear ring when it was socially unacceptable for men to do so. This idea has now been accepted. I refused to stand for the national anthem as it is pro royality; this idea has not been accepted. In short I felt comfortable playing my part in a society.
On holiday in Morocco I would never wear shorts or kiss my girlfriend or show disrespect for their king. I am a guest in their country. It isnt my "right" if I can use such a word to do so.

So how about working and living in a foreign country, not Japan as such? If I lived here for 30 years would I ever have the "right" to break "their" laws and rules?

I think this is an important question that pertains to anyone who has ever lived in a foreign land.

[Gordon]

I think everyone is different. Many foreigners live like they did in their home country regardless of where they are. Have you ever seen the Brits in Turkey along the Aegean? Yikes!

I try to adapt and be culturally sensitive, but I have my limits. I am who I am and won't change everything just because it may not be socially acceptable. One example, when I drop my daughter off at yochien, I give her a kiss goodbye. Now I have never seen that done EVER. People stare but I don't care because I am not going to be like the Japanese and not give my child any physical affection like them.

[sidjameson]

Gordon gives a great example of what I am talking about.
I would do the same as him I suspect, but to be honest his reasoning and mine too I guess is far from satisfatory.

I want to live in a foreign country. I know they will have different social values and laws from mine. I don't care, I will just break them as I see fit.

Sorry Gordon, not picking on you honest.

But change Gordon's example to goodbye kiss by lovers, who live in Saudi Arabia and happen to be men.

The only difference I can see is the strength of the feelings that the foreigner would attract. It's affection by humans that love each other, any other difference in acceptability is homophobia I would guess.

So is Gordon right not to care what his hosts think?

I still dont know. Indeed my behaviour is schitzaphenic (sp?). Somedays I am sensitive to Japan's values others to my own.

[Yawarakaijin]

Hi there Sid, I know what you are trying to say, my fault for going off on a tangent. In terms of breaking the social norms here its kind of a catch 22 situation.

In some ways I think we are expected to keep some of our "cultural" peculiarities and its not always easy to know when we are supposed to act like "gaijin" and when we are supposed to try and fit in.

I work in a typical japanese office environment and basically I just try to be myself. I follow all of the office rules. I dress like everyone else, I take my lunch when everyone else takes theirs. I punch out when I'm supposed to and never a minute early. I'm sure you get what im saying, follow all the institutional rules everyone else does and they notice. Don't get into the rut of thinking like "hey, im not Japanese its ok if knock off a little earlier than im supposed to."

In terms of the little cultural quirks I wouldnt sweat it too much. If you shake hands instead of bowing fine. Kissing your gf on the street, fine in my mind if your gf/bf is cool with it. If you blow your nose in public which is apparently a no no for Japanese I dont think its gonna make a scene.

I have however heard alot of my friends get really really put off by foreigners who mimic/fit in too well. Its always a fine line to walk. The way I see it is if they are really your friends and you happen to cross the line they will cut you the slack or inform you that you crossed the line in a friendly manner. If they are total strangers....well, would you might too terribly worried what strangers thought of you in your own country?

[Gordon]

Well, Sid, Saudi men kiss each other, so would you start to smooch Saudi males all the time?

Some countries, Saudi is an extreme, find certain behaviours worse than others. Kissing publicly in Japan is a lot different than in Saudi even though it is not accepted in either country.

[Glenski]

[luckyloser700]

I guess it all comes down to what level you want to fit in at and what level you actually can fit in at.
I like my life here and enjoy the close relationships I have with some of my Japanese friends. This is my main motivation for putting up with societal norms I find to be annoying or even ridiculous. If I couldn't do this, I guess I'd just go home, or to another country where the rules of society were more suited to my tastes. Having lived here for awhile, I've learned what I can and can't get away with. But, when I'm not sure I err on the side of caution. Even when in countries that have cultures other aspects that I have little interest in, I feel it's best for me to go along with the "program" and not act in ways that are socially unacceptable. I would have to have lived in a foreign country for a long time to feel it's ok to start pushing the boundaries. I'm a guest of a foreign country until I become an actual citizen of that country.

We, as foreigners, should trust Japanese citizens to effect changes where they see fit. If we understand what kinds of behaviors offend the people here, but still see fit to act in ways that are socially unacceptable, we not only spit on their culture, we demean ourselves and give them another reason to think that our home countries are full of people who are intolerant of others' ways of living. Some people take this sort of thing lightly, but I don't.

[Yawarakaijin]

To Glenski, yours was a very good point and well understood. However when I was talking about friends who really got put off by us acting too Japanese I was actually talking about my Japanese friends, I could have been more clear. What is your take on Japanese who get put off when we assimilate "too much"?

I mean could you ever imagine this conversation?

"Hey Joe, how is it going? meet that new guy Mr.Tanaka yet?"

"Yeah I did, what a freak, he gives me the willies the way he acts just like one of us."



As for us not acting like idiots so the Japanese dont believe our culture is intolerant I just cant buy that. Sure they would be free to believe that that one idiot was insensitive to Japanese ways but if they were to take it as our home countries are full of people who are insensitive to other peoples ways that would be their own prejudices showing.

I love it here and enjoy my time a great deal and have tons of Japanese friends but if I ever heard them say Canadians or Europeans in general are'nt open to others points of view they are gonna get my two cents.

[sallycat]

[casual]

[quote="sidjameson"]Maybe I didnt explain myself well in the OP, but having re read it I dont think so:)

My post isnt about whats wrong with Japan or how much it can or cant be changed.

My question is more of an existential one of the human condition and man's place in society. In this context; man's desire to improve his surroundings and his relationship to the society he finds himself in.

In England I helped break social rules and norms or I was at least part of thr never ending struggle between competing ideas. I wore an ear ring when it was socially unacceptable for men to do so. This idea has now been accepted. [quote][b]I refused to stand for the national anthem as it is pro royality; this idea has not been accepted[/b][/quote]. In short I felt comfortable playing my part in a society.
On holiday in Morocco I would never wear shorts or kiss my girlfriend or show disrespect for their king. I am a guest in their country. It isnt my "right" if I can use such a word to do so.

So how about working and living in a foreign country, not Japan as such? If I lived here for 30 years would I ever have the "right" to break "their" laws and rules?

I think this is an important question that pertains to anyone who has ever lived in a foreign land.[/quote]

Which part of England are you from?

In the north east of England I have yet to meet anyone who has stood up during the national anthem or has actually bothered singing it.

I actually only know the first line of the national anthem and have only been requested to sing it once during an FA Cup final at Wembley. Which me and many others refused to do.

[Glenski]