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[dduck]

In a different thread struelle gave an example of some theory that doesn't work with Chinese students, see below. What other things don't work where you are? And what does work?

Iain

[Glenski]

Asking Japanese students to volunteer for ANYthing is useless.

[khmerhit]

Yes, volunteering.... I hearde a story in Cambodia from a football mate who worked for a de-mining NGO. The NGO had set up some kind of committee and required volunteers to meet on Saturday mornings, or whenver, and volunteer their time to do some charitable work. One of the members was a Cambodian official (you'll understand if you know anything about your average Cambodian govt official) who had some difficulty grasping the concept of charitable activity. The meeting paused for this to be explained to him, he nodded vigorously and they proceeded to vote and move to the nxt item on the agenda. At the end of the meeting, the official asked my friend how much he would be paid for working overtime on Saturdays!

[denise]

There is a difference between what I learned in my TEFL course and "reality." Yes, I am glad I did that course, as it got me started in the Wonderful World of TESOL, but trying to cram an entire lesson into a neatly-packaged 30-minute PPP structure--!ay! OK, so you get the students to produce the desired form on their own at the end of the lesson. Does that mean that they have LEARNED it? Will they remember it the next week/day/hour? Of course, in a real classroom, you can review and recycle, but there just isn't room to do those things in a TEFL course.

Other language acquisition theories seem more sound, and though my students sometimes resist them, I insist on pressing forward with them. They WILL work in groups/pairs!! (Right now, I put them into pairs and they are just as likely to work quietly by themselves as they are to talk to their partner--!ay!). They WILL notice and correct their own errors! They WILL give each other feedback on their writing and speaking (meaningful feedback--not just "it was good")! It will all happen!!!!

d

[Roger]

I do not iknow what they teach you in those TEFL courses, but to me who had to acquire 4 languages simultaneously at school, it is obvious that there is a huge chasm between theory and reality. I often wonder whether those L2 theoreticians had to become proficient in any second language before they entered their professions.

What springs to my mind on account of Chinese - or other East Asian students - is that they did not get the same mind-conditioning that we get, which turns us into self-conscious individuals. We are Jim or John, Liz or Mary, but far less "students" or "Americans" or anything that smacks of group identity. We are, of course, Americans (or any other naionality for that matter), students (or any other vocational identity for that matter), boys or girls, but at the same time, we have developed a sense of "I", I-thethis or I-the-that, someone with a profile, a specialisation in which the I excels and is proud of being ahead of the rest of us.
East Asians totally lack this quality; they are a herd, a group, a class or caste; they do things in unison, chorussing English rather than rehearsing it solo, no doubt because they would feel insecure on their own. And this goes on until they take part in their exams - where they "help" each other, more or less openly. A "communitarian" approach that defeats the purpose of learning a second tongue.
Lest some of you think it is inevitable, it is not: it is not genetic, and because it is not genetic it can be avoided if the right approach is taken at an early age.
It is for example not impossible to elicit individual and well-thought out responses from primary school kids - provided they get proper attention (from a teacher who teaches them correct grammar, spelling, pronunciation and sentence patterns).
It is the Chinese or Japanese regimented school life that turns our students into zoombies!

[khmerhit]

Not zombies exactly, but I get your point. I think religion and language have a lot to do with it. For instance, I know that the subject or ego that we make so much of in the west is viewed differently by (unwesternized) Cambodians and other East Asians. I dont know enough about it, but I understand that their worldview is seriously different to ours. This extends even to the grammar of their language, and obviously how they behave in a classroom, and so on. I think we forget there is a lot to be learned from them-- with exceptions of course!

[shmooj]

[Glenski]

[some waygug-in]

Not such a big thing, this one, but when in my TESOL course, we were shown a video of a "famous" EFL teacher who worked for many years in China. I can't remember his name, (Dr. something or other). One of his suggestions was that while he asked questions of the class he would snap his fingers and then point to an unsuspecting student in order to obtain a response.

I now work in Korea, where among other things, I found out it is considered rude and offensive to point at someone with your index finger.

I was also taught that we should correct grammar mistakes as they arise during the course of a class. In Korea, (and probably Japan, China and some other Asian countries) it is considered rude to correct someone (especially if they are older than you) in front of the class. Koreans may become very angry and offended for being corrected in front of other students. They feel they are losing "face" and thus they will become very argumentative. (even when they know they are wrong)

I could site many more examples where theory does not quite work in a practical setting. But I'll save those for the book.

Cheers

[shmooj]

Now this is interesting.

I think we have to cite what contexts we are working in or we are going to overgeneralise horribly.

I work in a private language school with an average class size of 4 students. In that setting I have been able to cultivate volunteering, autonomy and student ownership of the class and material. It has taken months if not years though and has been an exceptionally rewarding experience - especially when I've trained other teachers to encourage it and they see it blossom in what they thought was barren ground.

Sounds like larger classes and particularly those that take place in normal educational settings (uni, college, schools) suffer predominantly from what Glenski describes though I would probably limit this to older Japanese kids. I have a feeling that elementary school students would probably mob you if you wanted volunteers.

As for what some waygug-in was describing in terms of pointing out error, the same distinction probably applies.

At our school all applicants (adults) fill out a questionnaire and are asked about error correction techniques that they would prefer the teacher to employ. The vast majority choose an option from several which basically says "Correct me publically there and then on every error." which has surprised me again and again.

I put this down to the setting though it may well be the type of students we attract who are usually highly motivated and believe their English, no matter how good, is total rubbish when they come here) and must be cram full of errors which they want to correct.

If no one else can corroborate this, I am very blessed indeed

[leeroy]

Although the academic world of ELT pedagogy disagrees with itself about most things, some theoretical constants seem to shine through...

* Teacher Talk Time bad, Student Talk Time good
* Lessons must be communicative
* Students must work in pairs/groups
* Teacher must elicit wherever possible, not explain
* Students should have closed and open practice
* Teacher must write new vocabulary in a little-column-on-the-side-of-the-board
* Lessons must have a "context" or topic.

This certainly seems like the CELTA way of doing things. As an initial guide to teaching, lesson preparation and classroom management this sounds pretty good. But as other posters have commented, different cultures respond better to different styles of teaching. I have a suspicion that Direct Method/Audiolingual styles of teaching may be more effective in Asian classrooms (as they require less "individualism" than more communicative approaches) - but have yet to test this thesis fully.