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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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 Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| [It all boils down to how much the person tries to fit in / assimilate, I suppose. Paul and I have exchanged quite a few posts on another forum with a guy who loves to parade around the streets of Japan (can't remember what city) in full kimono getup. |
You mean Kimonolover. I wasnt aware he was in Japan or had finished his degree. the last conversation I had with him he wanted me to buy second hand wedding kimono for him to add to his collection. Nice guy, a bit harmless but rather eccentric and had rather unorthodox views about his own government. (doesnt everybody these days)
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| Hey, how many Japanese men do you see doing that these days? If memory serves, he also tries not to mix with any other foreigners, too. That's all too much for me, and I can only guess at what the Japanese have to say. |
Kyoto foreigners have a reputation for not wanting other foreigners to invade their space and some will cross the street to avoid coming into contact. I know a lot of Kyoto-ites at my school and most are normal people as normal as ex-pats can be.
I knew one old vet here who put Japanese Noh-drama into English and spent 3 years producing a noh-drama set to Robert Frost, and performed it live to paying customers. |
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luckyloser700
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 308
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| sallycat wrote: |
| luckyloser700 wrote: |
We, as foreigners, should trust Japanese citizens to effect changes where they see fit. |
depends whether you're talking about taking your shoes off or about denying foreigners access to housing.
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Sorry. I should have clarified here. Was just referring to socially acceptable behaviors, not legal issues.
I do think foreigners' rights concerning such issues as access to housing need to be taken more seriously here. |
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voodoochild
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 80
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angrysoba
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 446
Location: Kansai, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners breaking the social rules. |
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| sidjameson wrote: |
In Thailand I stand for the king. In the UK I don't.
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If we were to ask "Are you a republican?" you would reply "In the UK, yes. In Thailand, no."?
"Are you a homophobe?"
sid: "When I am in Saudi Arabia, yes. But in countries that tolerate homosexuality I become conveniently liberal about it."
"Are you a moral relativist?"
sid: "Only where intellectual sloppiness is a pre-requisite for fitting in." |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I think sometimes the idea of socially acceptable behaviour does fall into legal areas, so it may be difficult, if not impossible to separate them at times.
That being said, my own feelings is that some Japanese customs are rooted in racism (I suppose all customs are to some extent, an attempt to differentiate one geographic area, be it village, town, etc form another), but in some countries it seems to go quite a bit deeper where some/quite a few/many people don't consider that it is bad and have no vested interest to try and change it, their attitude or outlook toward outsiders.
As to getting citizenship, what about the permanent residents here, should they have any additional rights?
I enjoy making people think everyday, including myself  ! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| As to getting citizenship, what about the permanent residents here, should they have any additional rights? |
Are you talking about someone forsaking his homeland and becoming a naturalized Japanese citizen, like Debito Arudou, or are you talking about someone living here long enough to get Permanent Resident status on top of his visa?
Big difference. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
As to getting citizenship, what about the permanent residents here, should they have any additional rights?
I enjoy making people think everyday, including myself ! |
Speaking for myself (with PR) kids in school, paying teachers salaries, paying a sh-itload in local and resident taxes, some say in voting out the lazy bums that spend my tax dollars on construction pork and high salaries for themselves would be nice. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. If we're paying taxes, we're not exactly guests of the country. so I'm not sure why there is a big difference. And actually, some Japanese citizens have dual citizenship, so just because the Japanese government doesn't offically like it, it doesn't seem to mean anyone has to forsake it.
So Glenski, as a permanent resident, I'm just a permanent visitor ? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As to getting citizenship, what about the permanent residents here, should they have any additional rights? |
Are you talking about someone forsaking his homeland and becoming a naturalized Japanese citizen, like Debito Arudou, or are you talking about someone living here long enough to get Permanent Resident status on top of his visa?
Big difference. |
I would have to check but I think Debito still has American citizenship even with Japanese nationality.
Something about the embassy not accepting his application. |
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prlester
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Foreigners breaking the social rules. |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| sidjameson wrote: |
How acceptable is it for a foreigner to break the laws and social norms of the country that he resides in?
I have pondered this for a long time. Simply put, in England I felt I was part of a society. I helped make the laws (by my consent) and I helped change the laws(by my resistence)
As examples; I refused to pay the unfair "poll tax" in the late 80's along with many. We broke the law, but by doing so got the law changed. In England I lived with my girlfriend, so contributing to the change in social attitudes towards marriage and what is considered acceptable behaviour.
But I always felt very strongly that whilst visiting another country one should follow their standards and not one's own. I wouldn't dream of offending a Malaysian by deep kissing my girlfriend in public for example. In Thailand I stand for the king. In the UK I don't.
So what about when one lives in a foreign land? Is there ever a time when one can start to participate in the evolution of that country's norms and values? |
Sid
foreigners have been coming to Japan since the Black Ships and been knocking on the door ever since. Dont think that Japanese will simply rise up because of a few small things you do. Usually its a matter of chipping away at discrimination, ingrained attitudes, xenophobia, conservativism and I have seen small changes in the last few years. usually its just a matter of educating people that their behavior attitudes are somehow wrong.
Sometimes you even have to go to court and gain a victory that way. I know the general union has changed many things in japanese labor laws in the last 15 years and foreigners have more rights than they used to.
From my experience in japan there are some things here where we are cut a lot of slack and others where if you rebel you will be socially ostracised. Even japanese nails that stick up get banged down. Dont expect special treatment because you are a foreigner and you have to learn to choose your battles. |
what are the things you get slack and what do you not get any? in general? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners breaking the social rules. |
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| prlester wrote: |
what are the things you get slack and what do you not get any? in general? |
I think this will depend very much on your job, social and economic status and how long you have been living here.
In general a person just off the boat, literally, will not likely speak the language well and may not know a lot of the unwritten and social cultural etiquette and how people interact with each other. Japanese tend to behave according to who they are speaking to in terms of age, gender, social rank, level of politeness.
A new person ( or even one who has been here a few years) may hold on to their western-ness or foreign-ness and not be expected to behave like a Japanese would. IF you have lifved here 10 years people may expect you to be able to speak Japanese and know some of the social rules, especially around family.
Glenski mentioned a foreigner who acts more Japanese than seems necessary and has no foreign friends. Some people seem to go overboard. There is a black guy on another forum who is calling himself a Japanese and trying to shed his western identity. To Japanese hes just another gaijin. Anyway sorry for the rant.
I can only speak generally and from my own experiences. People's attitudes will vary depending on their attitudes and goals and how much they want to assimilate into this society, age gender etc.
You might be cut some slack when:
you may not know how to use polite language or honorifics or lowering yourself in front of a more senior person
Improper use of chopsticks or eating from several bowls instead of a plate
using a signature instead of a hanko.
How to use a sento or an ofuro
Sitting in a seniors seat on a train or womens only car.
Hitchhiking in Japan (Japanese dont hitchhike usually but foreigners get rides easy enough.
coming through immigration if you are a long term resident
Maybe missing a meetiing because no one informs you though you are supposed to know
Not knowing much about teaching a kids class but just expected to be 'genki'.
Sitting crosslegged at a funeral instead of seiza (sitting on knees)
Not needing to speak Japanese even if you live here 10 years
Not cut some slack
Being unpunctual
getting soap in an ofuro, being rowdy or diving
Improper use of chopsticks (stabbing tearing food)
wearing shoes inside or toilet slippers outside
(depending on occasion) being deliberately obnoxious or a 'loud gaijin'.
Using illegal drugs, drink driving
Being late for class or even missing classes unintentionally.
Unconventional hairstyles, ways of dress.
ESID. Every Situation is Different. |
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