Job Discussion Forums

[peder]

I was just wondering will eastern europe have the same policy as western europe about holding a EU passport to get a work visa?

[bnix]

In all probability,Poland wiil have the same regs about hiring(actually,NOT hiring in many cases) non-EU teachers.After saying that,I would really suggest you contact a Polish embassy or consulate for more information.They officially go EU in 2004.If you are interested in teaching there,you MIGHT be able to teach there,getting in and teaching before they go EU.Again,check with a Polish Embassy.Best of luck.

[itslatedoors]

We hope so,more jobs for the people who actually live there see.Central/Eastern Europe would also get rid of the totally inexperienced North American MA students and a large proportion of the foundation /religeous/charity teachers who work for various pie in the sky reasons for less money, undercutting the wages of the actual professionals.Try South Korea or the Middle East,you're really popular there too.

[XXX]

Yes, and the poor Poles will get stuck with a bunch of Brits who's english is so garbled that nobody else understands them. That is why Canadians and Americans are far more popular as teachers in countries where the EU DOESN"T have a lock on the profession.

[itslatedoors]

EVERYBODY loves North America/Americans/American schools.What a generalization that is.Read the job info journal about AAE Kaplan in Poland,which has a large American exchange programme.Similarly you could read the comments about the College of the North Atlantic in Qatar,a Canadian outfit.Need I say more.But sarcasm aside, the point I was trying to make is that I've come across an awful lot of North Americans in every part of Europe and the "I'm doing Europe/finding my roots",mentalities seem to prevail.Not many are actually there for the teaching.Poland in particular does not need orgs like the Peace Corps or exchange programmes wherebye North Americans get a cheap Masters and Poles get teachers who can speak English but lack experience and teaching skills.The Poles pay an awful lot of money for private tuition and they deserve better than well intentioned do gooders or people in search of a sense of belonging.Poland has been a training ground for new teachers for too long and even the Poles are getting wise to it.Of course lots of Brits are inexperienced/unprofessional too but at least by excluding some you're minimizing the problem you have to deal with.Besides,these work visa regs are usually reciprocal.As for the garbled language jibe....look at your president.Americans, are popular in Asia yep that's true but in Europe they are often viewed 'tongue in cheek' and in the Middle East they are not popular at all.Sorry to piss on your fireworks.

[XXX]

Pray tell, what makes you think that I am an American? From what I have seen, there are far more Canadians who are professionals followed by the Americans and that it is the Brits who clog the profession and lower wages.
This is not to say that I haven't met some top shelf teachers from the UK. Then again, I have also met excellent people from New Zealand and Australia. What is really needed are teachers who speak CLEAR concise English and who know how to teach. When Poland becomes an EU passport only area, teachers from these countries will be at a distinct disadvantage due to visa requirments. Then any school that wants to hire native speakers will be forced to seek teachers from the U.K. Many, many times students of mine in business and the military said of teachers from the UK (notice that I didn't say Brits- some of my colleagues from Scotland would take offence if I lumped them with the English) this: "He (or she) is a nice person, but I can't understand a word they say". Actually, I had the same problem while vacationing in Amsterdam, which, much to my chagrin, is infested with skinheaded soccer hooligans. I would truely hate to see the language schools of Poland subjected to people of this ilk.

[Brooks]

not all Americans are bad teachers, but some are.
I don`t care for the missionary types that claim to teach English but are really pursuing another agenda. Not all missionaries are from America either. They come from England and Scotland too.


I don`t see how Poland can only have Irish or British teachers once Poland joins the EU. With all these new countries joining,
there probably will be a shortage if they only want teachers from the British Isles.
Poland is the biggest market for TEFL books after Japan.

Maybe Australians can substitute. And when there aren`t any, maybe Canadians can do the job. Basically someone from the Commonwealth before an American.

In 1999 it was easier to get a visa if you were an American teacher.
But things changed and it got more complicated.

In Germany, they take qualified American teachers. They like to have good British as well as American (or Canadian) teachers.
I prefer that because it is sensible.
In Japan they just want good teachers, even non-natives from places like Poland, Finland, Denmak, Brazil or Korea are accepted at some places.

[Chris]

As an American who has been working in Poland now for the past 5 1/2 years, I take great offense to some of the statements above.

1. The Peace Corps no longer exists in Poland, since 2000. They were guests of the government of Poland. These people were mostly teaching in very tiny towns (some as small as 400 people). Most native speakers wouldn't even think to teach in such a tiny town. However, I have to say that most of the Peace Corp people I met were very snobbish.

2. The "cheap" MEd that you are referring to. This program is fully accredited and is very well respected in the US and abroad. Some of the professors who have taught these courses also teach at Harvard, Boston University, etc. Highly respected and world renowned universitites.

Now, I have not participated in either of these programs. However, I have met many, and are currently friends with several, of those who have participated in these. Many of the teachers/students of the MEd have university degrees and are certified teachers in the US or have their degrees in English philology. They are much more qualified than some of the teachers I have met from the UK who only have their TEFL certificate, and had jobs in the hotel and restaurant industry before they left the UK.

I will not make a blanket statement as you did saying that all British citizens who teach here are worthless teachers. Just like there are some Americans who shouldn't be teaching here, there are also some British citizens who shouldn't.

Ok, enough for now.

[itslatedoors]

Now you big North American girls' blouses, if you read the original post and the response ,I didn't say that all American /Canadian teachers are bad.I also didn't say that all British teachers are good. The point I made is that there are many unqualified and more worryingly,inexperienced teachers from North America in Poland and that in my opinion the Poles deserve better.Of course there are many inexperienced Brits there too but many seem to be there for the teaching and not because its a cheap MA or they're doing Europe or they're 'Christians' .The reality is that the ELT industry has exploited Poland for too long.The comments about Brits in Asia are probably true.Different regions have different appeals.To some the drugs,sex ,Vietnam thing is a big deal hence the region attracts more than its fair share of cowboys,(of every nationality).As for your comments about students not understanding their British teachers..Well hell yes.I can't understand the 'jocks' and the 'taffs' either. Received pronunciation is a very southern English affair.

[Txpole]

OK, I was going to let this exchange go without my getting involved, but I have decided to add my two cents worth, especially since the AAE-Kaplan jab seems to have been aimed at me. I will freely admit that I had never taught ESL before I went to Poland. However, I did have degrees in History and Anthropology and one book in the process of being published. In addition, my coworkers and I signed 2 year contracts (almost unheard of in the ESL business) and had to be accepted into the graduate school of the oldest teacher training college in the U.S. BEFORE we could teach for AAE. Some teachers had prior ESL experience, some had TESL certification, and some were certified public school teachers. A distinction needs to be made between "inexperience" and "incompetence". An "experienced" teacher can still be quite incompetent. Also, the word "qualified" can be misleading; any ditch digger can spend his money and a few weeks of his time for a TESL certification and be technically "qualified" to teach ESL. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach conversation or business English, nor does it take an English major. Anyone who has an advanced degree or two has likely mastered the language sufficiently to teach ESL. The only advantage an English major might have is more technical knowledge of grammar rules. Luckily the Polish education system has done an admirable job of teaching English grammar, I have known hundreds of Poles who can vomit complex English grammar rules all day and yet can't carry on a conversation in English. I have also known many Poles who can only speak English with an exaggerated, Python-esque, British accent, and others who have had only N. American teachers and speak English with no accent or with a Polish accent. I have met teachers from the UK who were professional ESL teachers, and some who had the language skills of a Cockney fishmonger. Likewise, I know there are some incompetent N. American ESL teachers, but they did not work for my school. It is common knowledge that far too many of the people teaching ESL, of ALL nationalities, have no business being in the classroom. Many of them teach in bars anyway. However, "professional" ESL teachers have little to fear from their competition. The problem arises when governments disqualify teachers based on their passports alone. The belief that a Brit makes a better English teacher simply because he is British is nothing more than linguistic colonialism. The demand for ESL teachers in Eastern Europe will continue to grow, and if schools are restricted to hiring people with EU (read UK) citizenship, some of whom may not even be native English speakers; the overall quality of teaching has to fall. I know the Polish people fairly well, they will take some reduction in quality in favor of affordability, but they DO know when someone is trying to cheat them.

[itslatedoors]

The post was not aimed at you txpole ,so chill out ,I have never met you.I worked in Poznan and before that Bydgoszcz.My wife and son are Polish,I know Poland well.Most of the Americans I met in Poland were there on a jolly.I once interviewed one that spelt the word 'cat',KAT.The biggest laugh (and good friend) was a Canadian alcoholic teacher.In Bialystok I observed a school in which the one American teacher had a 15 year old student girlfriend.In Poznan,at UAM,the one American in our department was the stroppiest,weirdest guy I've ever met.(I hope you're reading Kurt.)At Akcent summer camp the American teacher thought that the kids needed an American army style induction of terror(Kurt's relative),part of which involved kids running a stinging nettle gauntlet.These are the people at whom my post is/was aimed.

[Chris]

But you were aiming at him because you were the one who slammed the AAE program in the first place! Again, I don't work for them, but many of my friends here do.

Anyway, I don't doubt that you know Poland and Polish culture. However, are you living here right now? And when was the last time you lived here. While I have to agree that there are some intolerable teachers here (of ALL nationalities), the quality of the teachers has drastically gone up since I arrived in 1997. All of us here in Sosnowiec are professionals. Yes, once in a while we party it up (I'm hosting my 6th annual St. Patrick's Day party on Saturday), but in the classroom, we know what we are talking about. And most of the students appreciate us. Believe me, I have seen teachers getting fired because they were not up to snuff. If the students don't believe they are getting a proper education for the money they are paying, they will speak up.

[itslatedoors]

I slammed inexperienced MA students.Read the job info journal about AAE Kaplan.To answer your ?,I was last there in 99(teaching at UAM,Poznan).

[Chris]

This discussion is getting tiring. I worked at AAE before they were associated with Kaplan (and I think they are no longer associated with them, but I'm not sure) from 97-99. They paid quite well actually, 1600 the first year (including $400 for flight, flat and health insurance) and 2000 the second year (the exchange rate was 3.4-3.6/$). This was quite good money at that time. AAE is far from perfect, and there are some things I'm disgusted by that they have done, but many schools are like this.

Since 1999 there have been many changes. Peace Corps has left, and more and more qualified and dedicated EFL teachers have arrived. I have seen this everywhere in the upper Silesian region. I'm currently teaching at the Academy of Economics in Katowice, lecturing at a private business college, and working at a local private language school. My native speaker colleagues are dedicated and qualified professionals of all nationalities (UK, Ireland, US Australia, etc).

Anyway I would like to know if anyone has any concrete information about Poland'a admittance to the EU and the possibility that Americans won't be allowed to work here. Personally, I feel that will not happen because of historical ties between our countries, but that is my opinion, not fact.

[Albulbul]

Well it is a bit of a gamble. rather like forecasting the winner in a horse race but more complex. What happens if inb a referendum the electorate say "NO" ?

If Poland does join it will take several years for harmonisation of laws with existing EU countries, and my bet is that non-EU nationals will be protected for a bit. Check out the refgulations for permanant residence. That could give you the protection that you want - if you plan to stay long term.