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Susie
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
Location: PRC
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 Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry, "Kowlooner", pardon please, could you explain your meaning, I didn't quite understand it?! Thank you. |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Then HH goes off and describes a really wild story! ... Susie comes back with sympathy for poor HH, noting however that it was good he didn't fall for a Chinese trap! ... HH's story is also questionable - not on whether it happened, but whether that's all there is. Was something left out, or perhaps misunderstood in the first place? |
As I stated clearly in the first sentence of that post, Kowlooner, there is no point judging a place by its worst residents. I recounted a story as best I could about just such a worst case scenario. I have no interest in demonising Chinese people. But you can believe what you want. I get on very well with people in HK and the PRC. I basically follow the Buddhist "ahimsa" attitude - hurt or injure nothing and nobody. But maybe Dragon777 is right. I am really a poof for being so gentle with aggressive people.  Or maybe you are right, and I am lying and my wife and I really aggravated the situation. Either way, I lose.
As you wish. |
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briandwest
Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| Susie wrote: |
| I'd like to know whether you mean, I am like your uncle who says "if they want my money they'll have to speak English" or whether you mean that the 26 route driver was like your uncle in that "if this foreigner wants off the bus she must speak Cantonese" ("加入这个 外国人要下车的话，那她需要说广东话"). |
"Beijing is the political master now and Mandarin is an official language in China, I'm in China so I speak Putonghua. If any of you 6 million, Cantonese-speaking 'Natives' want to talk to me, or help me, you'll have to bloody well speak Putongua."
PS Thanks for the Simplifed Chinese translation; I was struggling to understand the English. Presumably, as we are in China we're not allowed to use Traditional Chinese... |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| kowlooner wrote: |
Thank you, �Susie�!
But you know, everybody, I�m �beginning� to wonder if all these �things� really are �true,� as �Susie� has �described.�
Shades of Elsie Tu!
On another "note", please tell us, what does your �local� (presumably a �native� Cantonese-speaking HK �Chinese� � please �clear up� that �point� for us) �husband� think about all �this�?
Anxiously �awaiting� your �reply� (because surely, 未解決！ 未解決！ 未解決！). |
What's taken over 'kowlooner' now - a brain-devouring virus, a character-building drug? You sound as though you were Mr Authority who has the power to interrogate visitors to Hong Kong; is HK now a police state who decides what outsiders have to say or what they must never say about HK? You certainly sound a bit authoritarian!
And what's those comparisons to the U.S.A. and the U.K.? Football hooligans and crazy gun users - they give those countries a bad name for which their fellow country people pay an unfair high price; the price these compatriots pay may help control the behavioral problems their rowdier fellow nationals display. Why shouldn't it be allowed to raise one's own negative experiences with the Hong Kong mentality? You sound as though you were a Cantonese Hongkonger yourself (there are not just Cantonese Hongkongers but also Shanghai, SHandong, you name it you get it, Hongkongers; do they all exhibit the same behaviour? I doubt it; you can see differences between various mainlander groups even in Guangdong: I would never associate selfishness with a Hakka person).
I also find it a bit belaboured that any outsider has to kowtow to the Cantonese dialect when communicating with the HK proletariat! What's the rationale here? Certainly not "respect", is it? Haven't Hongkongers had enough chances to become a trifle less parochial over the decades that HK has played a major role in international relations? Haven't the locals heard that Mandarin is now de rigueur, especially if you want to secure your own future as that is no longer in the hands of the local government? What outlandish rationale that pettiness and vindictiveness in Hongkongers has to be viewed as well-deserved reaction to being invaded by tourists and expats from around the world inclduing mainland China and Taiwan - to the point of deliberately ignoring a passenger's request to be let off the bus... hijacking foreigners and mainlanders because they do not speak "our language"?
I am sorry to tell you, 'kowlooner', with your apologist's attitude you are doing HK a disservice!
Meanwhile I am still basking in the friendly helpfulness of those HK bus drivers of yore: one time I was on a bus to Shenzhen and didn't realise I had to get off right at the first stop in that city (the bus at that time only travelled to Shenzhen Airport, stopping one time in Shenzhen city, and I didn't know Shenzhen at that time).
Well, when I was the last and only person beside the driver himself on board the double-decker bus he realised he should have - or could have! - made me alight earlier. Unlike the rude minibus drivers Susie has described, that bus driver was apologetic (which I didn't expect him to be) and he bought me a can of Coke and put me on board another bus going back to Shenzhen. I later wrote a letter of praise to the bus company.
I also have fond memories of an elderly minibus driver that ferried me from Central to some place in Midlevels every day in the week. He spoke no English but he quickly learnt where I wanted to get off.
His younger colleague was a different person. Dressed in stylish shirts and driving his TOYOTA at breakneck speed on a winding two-lane road it was never a holiday travelling on the bus with him.
One day he ignored me as I stood at the road side flagging him down; his bus wasn't full, yet that's what he later claimed in defence.
The same guy also was fond of using his cell phone. One time he was steering his bus single-handedly on that serpentine road while holding an animated dialogue with someone else via his phone.
I had to travel to the terminus so it didn't bother me personally that he couldn't hear passengers' shouts to stop.
But his cell phone stopped being used by him after my complaints of reckless driving and ignoring passengers trying to flag him down. |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Or maybe you are right, and I am lying and my wife and I really aggravated the situation. Either way, I lose. |
HH, I didn�t say you were lying. I did suggest there was perhaps more to it. After all, as presented, a western guy smiles at two mainland chicks in bus queue, one of them then calls him over, looks like cutting in line, local Chinese guy reacts, you react, he overreacts back, and then you and wife possibly escalate. A �wild story� doesn�t necessarily mean a made-up one! And an omission is not necessarily intended.
And Roger, Roger, Roger!
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| Why shouldn't it be allowed to raise one's own negative experiences with the Hong Kong mentality? |
No reason not to do so. Complain away! The original issue, however, was whether Susie had perhaps some sort of persecution complex.
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| You sound as though you were a Cantonese Hongkonger yourself |
Sorry to disappoint you there. I�m a whitey.
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| I also find it a bit belaboured that any outsider has to kowtow to the Cantonese dialect when communicating with the HK proletariat! What's the rationale here? |
Perhaps to learn enough to get around and avoid misunderstanding? Fluency is not required. But trying to learn a little always helps. Regardless of the foreign country in which one chooses to live. (Except France of course � best to speak only English there just to get their goat).
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| Haven't the locals heard that Mandarin is now de rigueur, especially if you want to secure your own future as that is no longer in the hands of the local government? |
Dang French. Don�t they understand it�s a dead language? Speak English, Jacques old boy!
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| � to the point of deliberately ignoring a passenger's request to be let off the bus... hijacking foreigners and mainlanders because they do not speak "our language"? |
The point there being �deliberately � because they do not speak our language.� If this is the cause, there is nothing to celebrate. But I question both the �deliberately� and the cause. At least, in the way it is made out by yourself and Ms. Susie to be a common, everyday occurrence.
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| I am sorry to tell you, 'kowlooner', with your apologist's attitude you are doing HK a disservice! |
Drat! I�m now an apologist! Though I guess my point is to not take every negative story you hear at face value.
Anyway, back to the main point. Susie�s paranoia / self-inflicted suffering at the hands of �natives.� Which part did you not understand, �Susie�? Perhaps there were too many �quotation� marks. If it was the part in Chinese, I�m sure your local husband can translate for you. If not, you could possibly just cut and paste into Google and figure it out. Google�s a good tool for finding out stuff you don�t know, like plurals and stuff.
Oh yes. As Brian noted, thank you for your Simplified Chinese translation from the English. However, you might want to check on the meaning of 加入.  |
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Susie
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
Location: PRC
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Up-date on the map-ripping incident.
"Thank you for your letter on 30th May 2006.
We understand the case you mentioned and we had contacted the residents of Flat XY, Block Z. We had informed them about the case and they expressed they did not have any malice to you. They will pay attention to this and avoid any misunderstanding.
Should you have any query, please contact..." Kowlooner for clarification, "edification", mocking and value judgements. |
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surrealia
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 241
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Should you have any query, please contact..." Kowlooner for clarification, "edification", mocking and value judgements. |
 Good one, Susie!!!!! |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Should you have any query, please contact..." Kowlooner for clarification, "edification", mocking and value judgements. |
Ouch! Wow, that really was a good one, Susie!
Snippets of non-value judgments from Susie:
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� So I asked her in Mandarin, Ni you wenti ma? She spoke in Cantonese � no doubt some other abusive meanings �
� Whether you challenge them or not / or how you respond is up to you, but they'll set you up for a wrong-footing �
� I believe the aggressive woman on the bus wanted to provoke me into a reflex action that would have given her a chance to show me up as a wrong-doer �
� I certainly did not generalise about HKers' aggressiveness � (and) another story, yesterday �
� By now I have some insight into the minds of such people (I don't know whether he was a HKer or not, but he was Asian) �
� I should reiterate that I personally don't generalise about HKers � the reason I chose not to sell a bus ticket is because of a previous experience of having sold one �
� I know how to say "next stop" in Cantonese, but Beijing is the political master now and Mandarin is an official language in China, I'm in China so I speak Putonghua to the level that I am able to speak it �
� Well I don't think the (re: minibus incident) problem was one of language and (mis)understanding, I think it was one of "power" � |
But I really am dying to know. Is your husband a local, Canto-speaking HK Chinese �native� (as you implied) or not?  |
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Susie
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
Location: PRC
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Have a good day, Kowlooner! |
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Ger
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 334
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Ger on Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Kowlooner has made some good points. Any attitude of blame or judgement will tend to exacerbate conflict. The same goes for when Kowlooner judges others on this thread - people react.
Personally I think HKers are reasonably polite, in most circumstances. (The one exception is getting on and off public transport, where many rush on and off regardless of who is coming the other way or who has the right of way.) In fact considering the Godawful working condtions in HK, they do remarkably well. I always make a point to be as polite as possible, and to always say sorry first. 99% of HKers reciprocate in kind. Bus Uncle is one the exceptions, and that guy my wife and I ran into on the bus was definitely a mental case. I say that literally - major mental problems happening there. |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I am guilty of passing judgment!
Largely in response to the lack of judgment by the original poster - and of a number of initial respondents who assumed the events played out exactly as described.
Why do I say this? Because previous posts of hers suggested only a peripheral touch with reality. If her previous patterns held true, then it was likely her judgment was at least somewhat flawed in this latest event.
Consider the professional judgment displayed by Ms. Susie with her post last year about interview expenses:
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| So I was invited to attend an interview for teaching at a learning centre in Kowloon. The boss set the time and date and I was happy to go along with the arrangement. Suddenly, I decided to tell the boss that I would require $200 travelling and time expenses to attend the interview. I explained that if I were hired and worked at the school for XX hours in the first month, then, I would repay the $200 on the first pay day. |
The responses then included words such as �idiotic,� �cheeky,� �unreasonable,� and �screwball,� among others. Darn those judgmental weenies!
Though what would you, if you were a potential employer, think of a candidate who made such a request?
Or consider the professional judgment displayed by Ms. Susie with her post about plurals:
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Is it "curriculums"?
or "curriculi"?
or what? |
A question that surely could have been solved, say, by a quick trip to the dictionary?
Or consider the logical judgment / understanding of local conditions displayed by Ms. Susie with her post about routine safety checks at her apartment complex:
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Wednesday 10th August 2005, from 09:30 to 18:00 the other residents and I will have our elec., water supplies cut, because the wise people in the management office have people coming in to do routine check-ups! This is a regular occurrence.
I've written to SCMP.
Is there anything I can do to stop the madness? |
And thus her letter-writing campaign begins! Never mind that it�s a common maintenance issue, and one we should be thankful for. Oh, what the heck. Let the building crumble!
And then of course the display of multicultural sensitivity with her choice of the word �natives.� (Though personally, I guess I wouldn�t mind seeing some of the prettier girls walking around in grass skirts). 
When there are serious complaints, then yes, we should jump in and offer support and sympathy! But when the complaints are of a questionable nature and come from one with a history of both complaints and lack of judgment, isn�t it in our � and her - interest to address it? 
After all, as HH said, ".. HKers are reasonably polite, in most circumstances." Considering that some people actually read this forum to get some real information before considering a relocation to the territory, I figure it's fine to give accounts, both positive and negative, of the more typical situations they may encounter, whereas such blatently one-sided horror stories do no one any service. |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| At cinemas throughout HK now, Kowlooner 2: The Revenge. He's back, and this time it's personal! |
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Susie
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
Location: PRC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Ger, so you think I should thank "Kowlooner" or Chris Rose for something! What?
I think the post is no longer about a Hong Kong "native" ripping my map out of my hand and tearing it in the process before throwing it on the floor at her feet, just because it touched her hair while we were travelling on a residential bus, nor is it about the other things I mentioned, but this post is now about "Kowlooner".
So, Kowlooner, how are you doing? Did you have a good day? I think Kowlooner, I should praise you, as per Roger's suggestion, for your positive contributions to this forum. Thanks Kowlooner! I hope you believe me on this point and I hope you don't think I am out of touch with reality when I write that I think you should be praised for you own positiveness. |
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Susie
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
Location: PRC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I would not be able to comment on whether or not "HKers are reasonably polite, in most circumstances" as I have no experience of this.
(www.forgiving.org)
Last edited by Susie on Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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