Job Discussion Forums

quiescence · Joined: 29 Oct 2005 Posts: 7

White guys who date Asian women (as in: women from Asia, not women of Asian descent) generally think that Western women are a) less feminine than Asian women, and b) a pain in the a**. The burden will be on you to prove them wrong, as even unattractive white guys with no game whatsoever can meet women in Asia.

daily chai · Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 150 Location: Brussels

Are most of the people replying here SWM? Taiwan is getting painted as a expat man's paradise. It's also the reverse. I'm a WW and have no trouble getting Taiwanese and expat (locally known as 'foreign') men to moon over me. I'm thirtysomething and not bikini skinny. I don't spotlight my assets either (dress with clothes cut down to *there*). I lived with a Taiwanese guy for a couple years and am now married to a (Caucasian) European. In my non-scientific observations women with local guys are with men who lived overseas for a while for both linguistic and cultural reasons (even my gf's who speak Chinese). I know several expat women in long term relationships or married to Taiwanese men. There is no shortage of Asian men who would like to take you out to dinner. However, keep in mind that some idiots confuse white women with porn stars so keep your usual wits up when you're here, and steer clear of the ones with a bad vibe. You will have plenty of choice.
As a uni teacher, I get guys saying "you're beautiful" in front of the class Embarassed

and asking me out with their username on MSN, or to my face. Even when they know I'm married. I never bite, 'cos I'm happy AND I'm a professional but I want to reassure you that the opportunity is out there (to meet local men [edit]). I've never had so much male attention living in NAm or EU. My 60-yo gf told me of 40-something Taiwanese men checking her out on the street and getting asked out. Many of my gf's who are not hot get plenty of male attention from local and international men. The expat men I know are would be happy to get into a long term relationship with another expat, and don't forget your passport is appealing. Have they acculturated and want to permanently settle in Taiwan, or do they still have wanderlust but want a Western country? Not saying guys would run after you for passport only, but I'm pointing out you have a lot to offer. You can understand their jokes, speak English perfectly, and might be very appealing long term.
Tidbits: find out if a Taiwanese guy is the eldest or only son on a first date. In general, those who are are under tremendous pressure to marry a Taiwanese woman. So many of my gf's and I have been there, broken hearted. Also, any effort you make to learn Mandarin will be heartily welcomed, and exponentially increase your attractiveness to local men (and to some extent to international ones who will still have a "guide" here even if you're not Taiwanese). Also a lot of European men take Chinese so you can meet them there. There is significant racism against people with SEA appearance, but my Indonesian gf was dating a Taiwanese male model here so it does happen. Albeit with some difficulty.
My DH told me of the situation in NZ. Come to Taiwan! You won't be shelved. Quite the opposite.

trukesehammer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 168 Location: The Vatican

Yeah! Daily Chai's got her finger on the Pulse of Taiwan.

Incidentally, (not that this is on-topic or anything but) people keep asking me why I don't date other American Indians. It's because the settlers killed so many of us that now it almost seems like we're all related! It's even worse in my mother's side of the family --they come from the tiny island of Mwokil, population 289! Shocked

twinkletoes · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 76

I'm a swf, and I agree with dailychai. Taiwanese men are crazy for foreign girls. In general, they are sweet and nice and caring and considerate. The only problem you will have is learning how to sort through them and tell the good ones from the bad. Once you get a handle on them, it's cake. Don't feel like you aren't getting attention here if the men don't leer at you. They don't leer like Western guys do. But trust me, if you are western, they ARE looking. They are shy, but approach them and you will almost never be rejected. I have so many good things to say about TW men, they are just fantastic.

One very odd thing is that foreign guys do not like to hear about this, and so I have taken to keeping my mouth shut about my love life in the teachers room. No kidding, it is a very rare foreign guy who doesn't get angry if at the idea that Taiwanese men just might not be lame. Because of this, I am probably in part responsible for the stereotype of western women having it rough here - I often tell my coworkers I didn't do anything on the weekend when actually I had the kind of fabulous time that can't be posted on this forum. Wink

. Sorry about that, but I just can't deal with having them argue with me and try to tell me that TW guys treat women badly and not listen to any evidence to the contrary. It's easier to keep my mouth shut.

That might explain the confusion.

trukesehammer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 168 Location: The Vatican

twinkletoes · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 76

Truk, the song was sung by Nell Carter and some others in the moive "Hair". Great song, if may say so.

Unfortunately, I'm serious, but I should clarify that I'm not talking about 100% of Western guys here. I do have a good western male friend I can talk about my dating experiences with (and he is leagues above his friends in undertanding the experiences he's having with TW girls because of it, btw) and I know another guy who doesn't smirk when he hears me on the phone with a TW guy at work, but...

Yes. It's pretty typical here to have an exchange like this:

Foreign guy (FG): what did you do last night?

me: well, me and my guy...

FG: Is he a foreigner?

me: no, he's Taiwanese:

Guy: WHAT? YOU'RE DATING A TAIWANESE GUY BWAHAHAHAHA!

Yep, that's the reality. That's what's typical. Then there are the numerous times when a guy will hear that I'm dating a TW guy, and feel the need to lecture me on how they "treat women like shit" (they don't), or are terrible in bed (quite the opposite) or whatever, and then get angry or argue with me or accuse me of lying when I tell hime that no, I'm not experiencing any of that.

Guys here really love to tell themselves that Taiwanese men are terrible. I guess it makes them feel that much more successful with whatever TW woman they're with.

Don't even get me started on the Western guys who will hear that I date TW guys, and assume that I must be desperate, and then try to bed me. I've even had a western guy come up and start hitting on me and asking for my number while I was on a date with my TW boyfriend, and then get angry and storm off when I gestured towards my boyfriend and said "can't you see I'm busy?" If you want to know why some girls here get bitter towards western guys, it's because of this kind of behavior. I would never start lecturing a foreign guy about what TW girls are like, seeing as I don't date TW girls and wouldn't know, so it rankles me that guys think they can do the same to me.

The foreign girls here are doing the same thing the foreign guys here are. (except, of course, that TW guys have cars and are allowed to stay out all night and generally take girls out on 3 dates where they insist on paying for everything before trying to kiss them) I don't think it should be that difficult to comprehend, but for some of them it really is.

Of course, there are the girls who are really xenophobic and refuse to date outside their race. I don't know why those girls don't just stay home. What do you want to go to a foreign country for if not to have new experiences?

773 · Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 213

trukesehammer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 168 Location: The Vatican

Oh, for heaven's sake! Enough with the Straw Man Arguments already! That's not what Twink meant and you know it. She's specifically addressing XENOPHOBIC females who refuse to date outside their race.

Indeed, why do they bother to come here?

Maybe they're just here to work and/or...

they're already married or in committed relationships.
they're not interested in ANY relationship.
they're nuns.
they're just not interested in Asian men.

Mmmmm, ok. Now these we can work with.

But your point about fetishizing the "exotic other" is indeed well taken. This happens WAY too much, although I wouldn't hasten to stick Twink in that camp.

four-eye · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 18

taiwanese men r like men in other countries, i don't understand where did u get the negative impression about taiwanese men.

twinkletoes · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 76

Thanks, Truk. I wasn't implying that every girl with a western boyfriend in Taiwan was xenophobic. Some girls come here with botfriends or husbands, some are Mormons, etc., and some just meet a Western guy and hit it off. But. I don't buy the argument that they just aren't interested in Asian men. I can understand someone in a small town back home who hasn't seen many Asians saying that, but once you're here... NO. There is a wide variety of Asian men here. Basketball-player sized TW guys exist, as do bodybuilders, heavyset guys who are like 6'3" 220 lbs. They exist. When you are here you learn to appreciate the beauty in a lot of things you didn't have back home. Food, etc. I just don't understand how any girl could come here and not begin to appreciate the beauty of at least SOME of the men here unless she has some kind of negative stereotypes or xenophobia or racism blocking her from doing so. (Which, in my opinion, says far worse things about ones' charater than fetishizing) If you don't think the men here are attractive the day your plane lands, you most likely will after you've been here a few months.

And sure, you can have new experiences without dating the locals. If you're married or committed or a Mormon, you can still learn a lot about the culture, but if you're not, well...

Why would you want to not have the experience of dating outside your culture?

The best and most interesting stories I have, the experiences that have been the most enlightening, illuminating, challenging, and have taught me the most, have all come from dating. You learn so much about yourself, the kind of person you are and the beliefs you take for granted, from dating outside of your culture. Not to mention, you learn a lot more about the culture you're in. I've seen the inside of TW homes, met parents, been taken to a lot of places foreigners who just stick with each other don't even know exist, and gotten to see them through the eyes of the Tawanese. I've learned so much more from dating TW men than I ever could have learned from having TW friends who aren't as close to me as a boyfriend is. (Although I do recommend having at least one close TW girlfriend - they'll tell you stuff they don't tell men and you'll never hear anywere else) And crikey, why would you not want to experience sex in a culture that has a very different view of sexuality than your own? I won't elaborate on that in this forum, but believe me, I've learned so much about my own culture's view of sexuality and the blinders I didn't even know I was wearing, that it was worth coming to Taiwan even if that was the only thing I'd learned. Yeah, I've tried lots of food and seen the sights too, but none of that taught me anything about myself or my own culture that was halfway as interesting as that.

Anyway...
You could also have new experiences even if you come here and eat McDonalds every day, or never learn a word of Chinese, or never travel around, or make any TW friends, but why would you want to?

Xenophobe · Joined: 11 Nov 2003 Posts: 163

My wife has had a couple cousins marry Chinese men. Their complaint is with the Chinese mother in law rather than husband.

kuberkat · Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Oman

Hmmmm. In the name of science and objective intellectual debate, here is my two cents' worth. After what seemed like an eternity in Taiwan, my observations led me to believe that women have a kind of relational GPS system to which I now refer as the schmuck detector. While I know there are some truly good foreign men in Taiwan, the island does have a certain magnetism for the types that can get neither real jobs nor real er, "girlie action" (to quote the Stones) back home. Now the schmuck detector is only developed by experience, which is why these men would never be considered by a western woman. But because schmuckdom is culturally relative, it is not so easy to discern a loser from a different cultural background. Hence, the world's greatest losers are seriously hot property in Taiwan even more than elsewhere in Asia. Worst thing is, the unsuspecting, smitten Taiwanese girls often get hurt and return to the foreign dating scene for revenge.

We all lose out by insisting on romance from certain demographic quarters only: I dearly pity all the damned fine Taiwanese guys who are unfairly overlooked for foreign shuaige. Now I bear no grudge against any demographic. Nor do I want to dismiss the many meaningful intercultural relationships. What does bug me is how ridiculous it is to go after someone simply on account of their ethnicity. To be frank, those who are just looking for a status symbol truly deserve each other. Just a pity for the poor naive ones who get hurt, and the girls who are discussed as if they are ten-a-penny slabs of meat.

Wish I had good news for the OP, but my experience has differed from the posters who felt a foreign woman can lead a remotely normal dating life in Taiwan, and I doubt my looks are the reason. I got more than enough attention and flirting, but why would men permanently put up with a woman who has opinions and- heaven help us- priorities of her own, when yaysaying sycophants are available on tap? After doing my time in Taiwan, my self-esteem was at a direly low ebb. But the catch is that I thought there was something wrong with me. What a pleasant surprise to find that there are worlds where a woman can be positively coveted for her quality as an individual, not as a demographic. For her opinions, her quirks and, yes, her unique beauty. Those worlds do exist. Don't forget it, sister.

shahrezade1001 · Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 19

my two cents: i was only in taiwan for a year and most of the foreigners i knew were in my program and so also relatively new. also, most lived outside taipei. however, none of the women had a taiwanese boyfriend, and many of the guys had taiwanese girlfriends. *maybe* it was because taiwanese guys are shy. maybe because all of us were bigots (though i doubt it.) most likely this is the way it is outside taipei, and among those taiwanese who haven't met a lot of foreigners. they're just not interested. so, after reading this forum, if you want to date, choose your circle carefully! hang in taipei and among the well travelled.

also, i think what you look like matters but not in the way that you think. different cultures have different standards of beauty. often the (taiwanese) women i thought were really beautiful were considered sub-par there. i'm not totally sure what is considered beautiful in taiwan--definitely a small nose, probably a small build in general for females, light colored skin and dark hair. there's probably a ton more but i can't tell you what it is.

kuberkat · Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Oman

Come to think of it, the prospect of dating a Taiwanese guy never actually crossed my mind. Appeal is probably the bottom line: in five years I met only a handful of Taiwanese men that appealed to me at all. Perhaps that's how foreign guys in Taiwan feel about "western" women- there's just no appeal. And maybe I know how they feel: in fact, I find nowadays that just about every Caucasian male I see looks a little ill...