Job Discussion Forums

[Chris21]

That was an interesting article, I really enjoyed reading it. It was a perspective that I hadn't heard before on the challenges faced by the educational system here, and I think many of the arguments were valid.

The one argument that I think the writer should have spent more time developing was the notion that Japanese are among the worst in the world at learning English. He mentioned that Japan ranked 180 out of 189 on the TOEFL test, but nothing beyond that. I think evaluating proficieny is a very difficult thing to do, and taking that TOEFL ranking at face value is problematic. Consider that in Asia, Tajikstan, Turkmenistan, and Laos all finished higher in the rankings than Japan, but only 65, 44, and 33 people took the test (respectively) compared to more than 83,000 in Japan. I don't think a simple ranking is at all indicative of where Japan truly stands in the world.

Also, being an EFL context (rather than ESL or pseudo-ESL), there is a different value placed on communicative competence here. There's much less need for Japanese to be proficient at speaking English than in say, Hong Kong or Singapore. And why is speaking more valued than reading? Or writing or listening? If Japanese are very good at reading, shouldn't they be given credit for that? Doesn't that more accurately reflect their need for English?

Basically, I'm just trying to say that assessing proficiency is an incredibly difficult thing to do, and I think it needs a more critical examination than a TOEFL ranking and a confused JAL flight attendant.

[shikushiku-boy]

Of course, I accept that the JAL FA isn't conclusive proof of anything.

While I was teaching in Japan, one particular scenario kept running
through my head. One of my students goes to Sydney for a holiday.
They come out of the airport, and get into a taxi. They are faced with
their first communicative act. The taxi driver turns around, and in heavily
accented English says: "Whereyawannago?". My student is completely
baffled. Nothing he/she has studied has prepared him/her
for that moment. No textbook has mentioned the word 'whereyawannago',
and no dictionary has the word listed. All those years of studying grammar
has not prepared him/her for 'whereyawannago' . What good is their reading
ability then? What does the student think of me (the person who, supposedly,
was paid to prepare him/her for that moment)? What does the student think
of the school they paid all that money to?

Most westerners teaching English in Japan are teaching spoken English.
This most accurately reflects their needs from western teachers.

I think, in Japan, too much time is spent teaching grammar, and too little teaching
real communicative competence. Too much 'present perfect progressive', and too little
'whereyawannago'.

[Mark]

[Chris21]

Who says they're bad at reading tests? ETS? I'd like to see some evidence, other than those TOEFL rankings that conclusively proves that Japanese are among the world's worst at learning English.

Whether they suck at English is all relative. I've run into Japanese people working at Lawson's, restaurants, shops, and lots of other places that were excellent English speakers. I've always had students in my classes that could talk with me, and on Fridays, most of my students are excellent communicatively. Of course there are lots and lots of people who have no idea how to communicate, but it's like that in lots of countries.

So let me pose some questions...
Are the TOEFL rankings a valid way of comparing the proficiency of Japanese students against the rest of the world?
What evidence is there that they suck (relative to the rest of the world) at reading English?
Is it more important for Japanese to speak than to read?
Is Japan alone in it's failure to teach actual communicative English (i.e. "whereyawnnago?")?

I'd love to hear what you think.

[Mark]

[Chris21]

Excellent points. I'm convinced.

[Mark]

[Lynn]

[quote="moot point"]

[Lynn]

[quote="Mark"]

[nomadder]

And yet I found that in my eikaiwa world, the FEW HS students(wished there were more) seemed to do very well. I saw a big difference from JH to HS including speaking more in the class. True my sample size was small but I wonder why this was.

It was sad to see kids who could've really improved their level a lot quit after grade 6 - grade 9 just when they were really getting somewhere. Off to juku or busy with clubs or at the age when they lost interest. Sad waste especially when they'd been there for years. One boy almost quit but his mother encouraged him to stay and in that year-gr.9 he improved so much.