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Tottori-Dood
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Who cares?
The guy probably has other sources. Anyone doing a MA is probably NOT basing all his information on an internet forum. Sounds like he is trying to conduct a basic SRS to me. Do take into account that the information gathered from this sample will be extremely bias. In fact, I would venture to say that it would be so biased that it will render this sample useless for purposes other then citing anicdote.
The bias comes from the fact that most people reading this board and posting under it have bad experiences to tell (and I'm not trying to sound condescending saying that - I'm pointing it out just in case you may have overlooked it).
As for me,
I came to Japan because I enjoy traveling. I wanted to see parts of Asia and teaching english is a good way of bankrolling it.
The interview process was simple. A group interview where we preformed a mock lesson and were given a short run down of the company. Then a personal interview the next day in which the interviewer asked me to do a lesson. The interviewers were looking for a person with a good personality who was able to make them feel comfortable. It was vary obvious.
I was not under any false expetations that people were running around with Samurai swords and gaisha a plenty - although it would be cool. I did not however expect that the people would be so polite. The politeness thing took me way off guard and was a pleasent surprise.
This will not be my career. Not because I don't enjoy the job, but because my earning potential is much higher.
Initial training was seemed like it was very intense/condensed. It lasted a week and was a lot of fun. It helped that the trainer for my region is a cool guy. The initial training was adaquate for the job I preform. It doesn't take intelligence to work somewhere where the lessons are laid out for you. Follow up training is good. I don't necessarly know if it is useful or not. For me it is nothing more then a formality, I listen to what they say, they tell me things I already know, and I try sit through it. There are some usefull points to follow up training though.
At my school, there is a strong link between the business side and the teaching side, however, it is mostly taken care of by the manager. Yes, I am responsible for making recommendations but my primary responsibility is not sales. I am very good at sales but I do not feel pressure or "a need" to meet a specific quota.
The lessons range in effectiveness for each student. You cannot learn english in 50 / 10,080 minutes a week. If a student studies on their own time and then asks questions during class then the lessons are very useful as a teaching tool. Sadly, most students think that since they are registered at an English conversation school they will magically learn all they need to know about English in 50 minutes a week. It is a very student dependant thing.
I have a good relationship with a lot of my students. This includes going out after work, laughing, joking, calling one and other, etc... If I were better at Japanese I feel as though it would not be hard for me to become friends with some of the lower level students. The students have a keen interest in me and respect me very much.
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ripslyme
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 481
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Eikaiwa - A study |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Why you went to Japan in the first place & the interview process. What were your expectations? Were they met? Did it lead to a career in ELT? |
First went to Japan with the JET Program because honestly I didn't have anything lined up. After JET, I decided to get an MA-TESOL and pursue a career in ELT. I now teach English at a private elementary school in Saitama.
However, I do have time in eikaiwa - I just finished a year with Nova. Decided to do eikaiwa for the ease of (re-)entry into Japan. I interviewed with them during the last semester of my MA. It was a pretty serious interview. I felt that some parts were somewhat challenging actually. From interview to arrival in Japan I'd say it was about 4-5 months, I can't quite recall exactly. My expectations were pretty low actually, based on the Nova instructors I knew as a JET and miscellaneous internet reports. Fortunately, my experience had exceeded my expectations. That is, I had a much better time than previously led to believe.
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Your initial training and whether you felt it was adequate. Also what was taught at follow up training and any other trainings. |
Initial training was somewhat brief, 3 days on-the-job. For the "curriculum" Nova follows however, I felt that it was adequate. Follow up training consisted of ways to improve lesson delivery and evaluate students. Other trainings included kids, chibiko (very young learner), and specialty (TOEFL, TOEIC, business and travel) classes.
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Sales training workshops (self-study workshops) |
No explicit sales techniques were discussed. However, there was training on how to give demonstration lessons and initially evaluate new/prospective students.
| womblingfree wrote: |
| The link between the business side and the teaching side and how these co-existed at your school. |
There was a bit of a link between the business and teaching side. For example, if a student's contract was up for renewal the Japanese sales staff would remind us and ask to make the lesson especially good so the student would renew. We were never told to directly ask the student to renew.
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Did you build up a relationship with your students? |
In an academic sense, I was concerned about my students' development, identifying their strong & weak points and offering feedback for improvement. They came to know me and my style of teaching, and told me that they got a lot out of my lessons.
In a personal sense, I made friends with some of the students. To be on the safe side, I did not meet with any of them outside of class while I was working at Nova (per their anti-socialization policy). However, now that I'm not working for Nova anymore I hang out with some of my former students once in a while.
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Did you find the lessons effective? |
Generally, I'd have to say yes. I felt that most students improved with the lesson system used at Nova. A good number of them studied English outside of class as well, using a variety of techniques. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why you went to Japan in the first place & the interview process. What were your expectations? Were they met? Did it lead to a career in ELT? |
Had worked in Taiwan and Hong Kong before, was interested in coming to Japan. I had no expectations about interviewing, though it was frustrating in that the schools were not always very clear about what they were looking for. A few wanted me to relocate out of Tokyo, which I decided not to do.
| Quote: |
| Your initial training and whether you felt it was adequate. Also what was taught at follow up training and any other trainings. |
Minimal, maybe once a year or so. Useful, sometimes as reminders of what you should be doing, and also for knowing about changes to material.
| Quote: |
| Sales training workshops (self-study workshops) |
Never, the place that I worked at doesn't use this system, teachers don't sell students on programs directly.
| Quote: |
| The link between the business side and the teaching side and how these co-existed at your school. |
My background being in business, it is readily obvious that they are businesses first, educational services second. As to the linkage between the two, too often schools make decisions based not on improving services, but on improving the bottom line, profit.
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| Did you build up a relationship with your students? |
With some students, yes. I would sometimes go out with students.
| Quote: |
| Did you find the lessons effective? |
Yes, though of course the amount of outside review and practice amplifies what is done in the classroom. I had the pleasure of seeing some students make great progress over a period of time, though there were some who unfortunately seeemed to perish in the system, being constantly held in sway by a 'Peter Principle' of language learning. These students always seemed to be studying material that was 1-2 levels above their true ability. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Eikaiwa - A study |
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Okay, I got some time today, so I'll play along. I'll answer the questions -- and HOW womblingfree chooses to use my answers is entirely up to him -- I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he knows what he's doing with the anecdotes we give him...
| womblingfree wrote: |
Why you went to Japan in the first place & the interview process. What were your expectations? Were they met? Did it lead to a career in ELT?
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Went to Japan with my wife for a change in lifestyle. I was working for Canada's 2nd largest telecom (on a cubicle farm, but making decent union wage), and my wife was working with mentally handicapped adults in day programs. Both our jobs were very difficult -- and due to conflicting shifts, we rarely ever saw each other. We were also not enjoying what we were doing. In addition, I could "feel" a strike (or labour stoppage) coming down the pipes, and due to all our financial obligations, I was ending up with NET -$50... and my wife was ending up with NET $100 per month. That was the extent of our disposable income... SO, through a series of events and people I happened to meet online, I got turned onto the idea of going to Japan to work.
The interview process: I did one telephone interview from Canada, was later offered the position but rejected the offer based on Dave's people giving me very negative feedback on the proposed contract (that thread still exists and was resurrected last month briefly). We proceded to move to Japan (using the income from the sale of our condo) without jobs, but hoping to find work upon arrival (on WHVs). After a week of various interviews in and around Tokyo, we got ourselves an interview in a city about 2 hours away. The interview was a standard interview, just like you might expact back home. The only difference was, the kocho sensei of the eikaiwa was present, didn't speak any English, and everything he said had to be translated for us via an interpreter.
Were our expectations met? At the time, they were.
Did it lead to a career in ELT? I dunno. I'm still here, 3.5 years later and so far there is no foreseeable end in the near future. Although I no longer work for an eikaiwa, but directly for the local BoE.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Your initial training and whether you felt it was adequate. Also what was taught at follow up training and any other trainings.
Sales training workshops (self-study workshops) |
initial training: not much. We INSISTED on sitting in on some classes (as we were hired in the first week of March with an April 1st start date) -- so we did some observation. If it weren't for our insistance, things would have been much more difficult. Other than that, we were told which classes we would teach and which textbook they were using. A lot was left up to us to figure out.
After that, a few months in, the manager or assistant manger would sit in on one of our classes to observe, make notes, offer suggestions on how to improve, etc. This was highly subjective and often the suggestions were nothing more than just the manager's own personality -- had nothing to do with actually improving the lesson. I learned a few things -- but not as much as I would have expected.
There were no sales workshops as this eikaiwa didn't sell materials. When students signed up, they were required to have a textbook, whose cost was already built into the tuition fee.
| womblingfree wrote: |
The link between the business side and the teaching side and how these co-existed at your school. |
Harsh. Teachers were expected to keep happy bums in seats, and I was explicity told (after some of my adult students quit because one of my classes apparently was too difficult) that I should defenestrate any notions of actually teaching English, because we were in the business of EDUTAINMENT.... Teachers were often held personally accountable for when students quit. Even though the school kept on saying that this was NOT the case, teachers were often questioned and given a hard time when this happened. Not always, mind you, but it was certainly an issue.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Did you build up a relationship with your students? |
Some. The school had absolutely no rules or policies regarding socializing with students outside of class (or the school) and it was not unusual to attend parties, suppers, go on trips with students. I can't say many have become long-term friends, but some teachers definitely HAVE established such friendships. I can really only pin down two people (from all the students I taught when I worked there) whom I could say that I'm still friends with.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Did you find the lessons effective? |
Not really. But then again, that DID depend on the students. The highly motivated ones usually requested private instruction (a tutor) as opposed to a class, so there was no other classmates to slow down their progress... But this too was an exception rather than the rule. I taught a 7-year old, whose mother was frothing-at-the-mouth nuts to have her son learn English -- he attended about 3 classes per week, pushed him HARD, and frequently got angry at her son AND at her son's teachers when she felt that his progress wasn't up to par. Fortunately, I avoided 99% of that wrath, as I always assigned him homework (like his mother requested) and he ALWAYS finished it like clockwork. Was his English any better than other kids his age? Marginally. The kid really didn't want to be there. He would just as soon play a game or do some colouring.
Many of my adult students -- heck, I don't even know why they were there. For example, I had a 50-year old farmer. I would always ask him how his crops were doing, and whenever he did a harvest he'd bring me some nice vegetables. No idea why was learning English. On the weekends he'd go squid fishing on the coast and every night he and his wife would drink themselves to sleep with a 3L jug of shochu. Eventually he quit (temporarily) because he decided to take up Portuguese instead.
In that same class, I had a lady quit because she decided to take up piano lessons, and a third one quit because she figured it was time to study Mandarin Chinese.
I had another class made up entirely of women. They were a little disappointed to get me as a teacher (but they didn't quit). It wasn't until months later that I learned the nature of their disappointment was due to the fact that their previous teacher, at some point or other, banged each and every one of them (the fact that some of them were married made no difference). Well, that was one perk that I was not ready to offer.
| womblingfree wrote: |
I'm happy to just hear about anything whatsoever that you have to say, so ignore all of the above if you like. |
This eikaiwa was (and is) fairly typical. I really can't imagine working for them ever again, even though we parted ways on good terms and I walked off with my completion bonus AND a letter of recommendation. The same can't be said for 80-90% of their other staff, most of whom frequently break contract and leave bitter (I can't blame them for doing so). Turnover is high (as is usual and to be expected) and many problems come from above (the kocho sensei) and trickle down the ranks. There are few long-term employees. As to the location and name of the school -- those are things I really can't get into.
If there's anything else you want to know, just ask or PM me.
Cheers. |
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shikushiku-boy
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: colour me gone |
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A Nova anecdote (It's a true story, I swear)
We were told a new teacher was arriving, a Canadian.
He arrived on one of my days off. I was told he'd arrive
about 6:00 pm. I got back to apartment about 7:00 pm.
He's been there since 5:00 pm. Another teacher and
I chatted to him. He handed out miniatures of a Canadian
whisky called Crown Royal. At 9:00 pm we took out for
a drink to meet the rest of the teachers who worked at the
branch. Things seemed to be going fine.
The next morning, there was no sign of him. No big surprise.
We just put it down to jet lag. When we got home from work
that night, still no sign of him. We thought he was still sleeping,
or had gone out for the night.
The next morning she was still a no show, and we were getting
concerned. We mentioned it to the teachers who lived in the
next apartment. One of those guys said: "I'm pretty sure I saw
him early yesterday morning, carrying his suitcase, and walking
towards the station."
We phoned Nova foreign personnel: "One of your teachers is missing."
About a week later, we were told that the guy was back in Canada, and
threatening Nova with all kinds of legal action. He told Nova that we had been
unfriendly towards him, and there had been 'pornography' pinned up on the
walls of the apartment (in reality just some bikini babes), and that the
kitchen sink had been full of dirty dishes (true).
Nova foreign personnel did their best to blame us, and we heard no more
about it.
We estimated that guy was in Japan about 19 hours (depending on the time
of the flight back to Canada). Is this the record for someone 'bugging out'?
Has anybody heard of somebody bugging out even faster? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: Re: colour me gone |
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| shikushiku-boy wrote: |
We estimated that guy was in Japan about 19 hours (depending on the time
of the flight back to Canada). Is this the record for someone 'bugging out'?
Has anybody heard of somebody bugging out even faster? |
I have heard of people not even clearing immigration control at the airport before having a panic attack and flying back on the same flight they came in on. |
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shikushiku-boy
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, people are strange.
And working for a company like Nova,
you sure do meet some strange people.
God, imagine not even leaving the airport!
Most of the big eikaiwas suffer from young,
first-time-away-from-home employees
disappearing one weekend. Too embarrassed
to tell anybody, they just vanish into thin air.
Still, I suppose, the big 4 factor it into their
calculations. But, it must be a nightmare
for small schools.
This Canadian seemed like an OK guy.
He told us he had been teaching English to
factory workers, in some God forsaken
Russian industrial city. I thought, if he can
hack that, then Japan should be a picnic.
Guess he just thought better of his decision,
and looked for an excuse to do a runner.
I heard about another Nova teacher who left
clothes drying on a radiator, came back to his
apartment to find it had been gutted by fire.
He headed straight for the airport. Apparently,
Nova chased after him. I wonder if they ever
caught up with him? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sigh. Forget statistics. Forget supportable evidence. Forget something that a living breathing advisor/mentor would accept.
Give wombling what he wants...attention.
Everyone lie, ok? Sign on with various IP addresses so he gets information from you 3 or 4 times and doesn't know it.
Better still. wombling, just cut and paste all of Dave's ESL Cafe. And just cite Dave Sperling as a reference. You're done. |
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Tottori-Dood
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Sigh. Forget statistics. Forget supportable evidence. Forget something that a living breathing advisor/mentor would accept.
Give wombling what he wants...attention.
Everyone lie, ok? Sign on with various IP addresses so he gets information from you 3 or 4 times and doesn't know it.
Better still. wombling, just cut and paste all of Dave's ESL Cafe. And just cite Dave Sperling as a reference. You're done. |
Glenski. don't take it personally but... do you know anything about statistics? Open up a first year sample survey design textbook (don't even need to go into mathamatics) and look at the defination of a SRS. Then look at what is acceptable as a SRS. Then read about how there are various bias' that need to be considered within a SRS. Then read about statistical significance.
I know you are a smart guy, usually your posts are good and informative. I'm seriously not trying to slam you as I respect your opinions on this board but you need to look at simple definitions of statistical significance before you post about the subject. If in fact this data were able to be quantified there could in fact be corrolation. But, qualitative sampling is a major source of information in many fields. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Sigh. Forget statistics. Forget supportable evidence. Forget something that a living breathing advisor/mentor would accept.
Give wombling what he wants...attention. |
Thank you for your attention, I feel better now.
Anymore examples of delusional one-up-manship for psycho analysis? |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Doing Research in Cultural Studies : An Introduction to Classical and New Methodological Approaches (Introducing Qualitative Methods series) by Paula Saukko |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Sigh. Forget statistics. Forget supportable evidence. Forget something that a living breathing advisor/mentor would accept. |
This is an ethnography, not a quantitative study. Ethnographies rely on "thick description" and narrative, not statistics (although they can be included). I've met plenty of well-respected researchers (even many quantitative ones) that would have no problem accepting an ethnography as a thesis. Actually, I think examining an eikaiwa is an exciting prospect that should be explored.
Anyway, wombing... here are some of my experiences at an eikaiwa...
| Quote: |
| Your initial training and whether you felt it was adequate. Also what was taught at follow up training and any other trainings. |
My initial training was an intensive five-day session that stressed the school's desired teaching methodology (in this case PPP), some of the activities from some of the lessons, various teaching techniques (error correction, pair work, etc), and some specific company information (contract, payment, schedules, etc). The real plus about working there was that there was consistent follow-up training. Observations were conducted regularly, and all of the teachers were allowed to conduct observations and be observed. There was a great deal of autonomy in lesson development, which was an excellent motivator for the teachers and encouraged them to refine their teaching practices.
| Quote: |
| Sales training workshops (self-study workshops) |
The sales department was seperate, and consisted entirely of young Japanese (mid-20s) working horrible hours.
| Quote: |
| The link between the business side and the teaching side and how these co-existed at your school. |
Prospective students were always being given tours through the school. Teachers would be encouraged to friendly wave, smile, or even chat briefly with potential new students. Occasionally demonstration lessons would be requested. Teachers would also be requested to take strolls through the sales room to encourage prospective new students, who were having private consultations with their rep, to sign up. Teachers had to act and dress professionally, and were encouraged to always improve lessons to encourage repeat business.
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| Did you build up a relationship with your students? |
At school we could be very friendly and chatty with our students, but we were forbidden to fraternize with students outside of school.
| Quote: |
| Did you find the lessons effective? |
The lessons were excellent. We were always refining and improving teaching plans. There were a couple of lessons that never really improved, but for the most part, lessons worked very well. It was much easier to teach the lower level students because we could isolate certain functions and notions, while with the higher levels it was difficult to work on anything other than fluency. We couldn't assign homework and didn't have lengthy courses (i.e. usually we'd see a student once, and then have completely different students in the next class).
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casual
Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I had a friend who did their Nova training in Nagoya a few years ago.
A young scottish lad didnt bother going to his first day of training and simply went home. Apparently, he was somewhat dismayed by the lack of English spoken in Japan and went home after finding one day of mixing with non english speakers a bit too much for him.
It certainly seems that the braveheart spirit continues to live on within the Scottish youth of today. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If in fact this data were able to be quantified there could in fact be corrolation. But, qualitative sampling is a major source of information in many fields. |
I'm not a sociologist in any respect. I was trained in the hard sciences (including a couple of stats courses). Could someone explain to me in layman's terms how you can corrolate any of this "data" since all of the responses come from anonymous sources on an emotionally charged forum containing potentially false and misleading information? |
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luckyloser700
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 308
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Here's my thesis:
Purpose: to show that Scottish people are actually weak-willed (despite Liam Neeson's and Sean Connery's best efforts) and can't live successfully in foreign countries.
Here's the body of my research:
| casual wrote: |
I had a friend who did their Nova training in Nagoya a few years ago.
A young scottish lad didnt bother going to his first day of training and simply went home. Apparently, he was somewhat dismayed by the lack of English spoken in Japan and went home after finding one day of mixing with non english speakers a bit too much for him. |
And, in conclusion (sarcasm used for effect):
| casual wrote: |
| It certainly seems that the braveheart spirit continues to live on within the Scottish youth of today. |
A solid piece of research, if I do say so myself. Only needed one case of hearsay to make a solid conclusion. |
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