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buddhaboyjp
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Dai Po, Tai Wo
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 Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's too bad when things like this happens, and it does make the moments uncomfortable to say the least, but may I suggest that you drop it?
I know that sucks, but what do you really hope to accomplish?
I truely feel nothing will be resolved.
Best to let it go.
As the saying goes: "Let go, let Buddha (or was that God?) |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly.  |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kowlooner wrote: |
So you really feel you could not have an affirmative answer to any of the following questions?
- Has anybody not had experiences with rude Londoners?
- Has anybody not had experiences with rude Beijingers?
- Has anybody not had experiences with rude Parisians?
- Has anybody not had experiences with rude New Yorkers?
- Has anybody not had experiences with rude Johannesburgers?
Again, a strange neighborhood you live in!
But to repeat, I�m not suggesting Hongkongers are a terribly polite bunch as a whole when you�re walking down the street, or riding in a bus. I am suggesting the original story was flawed and incomplete, with the victim (your choice of words) both overstating the intensity of violence (also your choice of words) in the encounter and understating her role as provocateur. So, �
� yes, I guess I am accusing the self-described victim of being insensitive, and of you taking seriously, and enhancing, the story of a victim who has more or less already been discredited. As to rudeness in general, I think it partly has to do with one�s own expectations as to the behavior of strangers.
Then of course there�s the stressed-out westerner who decides he or she can be just as impolite as the Chinese. This one is seen all too often on the MTR, when �they� (over-generalized stressed-out westerners this time) decide to use bulk to give the Chinese a taste of their own medicine, barging in or out with elbows flying and backpacks or briefcases swinging. These folks are usually deep into culture shock.
On
What is it that you are "sure" of exactly? |
Could somebody else handle this question? I thought it was pretty self-explanatory, but Ms. Susie seems to not understand.
By the way, is anybody else wondering whether Susie concocted the whole event just to have some fun on the forum? [/quote]
It is now you, "kowlooner", that has a credibility problem! You don't know Susie or me but you have decided to treat her as an impostor. Who used the word "prejudice" the first?
This isn't a topic rocket scientists or lawyers should enthuse over yet you are excelling at sophistry and twisting and turning arguments.
Why can't you just accept that someone gets her personal frustration off her chest for an incident that stands out in her life?
No one disputes your claim that there are rude Londoners, Parisians, New Yorkers, Johannesburgers.
If an isolated incident causes a traveller to go public about their experience then they will find an outlet where they can expect some sympathy. The effect in the mid-term could be that people get tired of remembering it and actually turn a new leaf and see the place in question in a friendlier light.
But with apologists such as you the animosiy or antipathy can only grow. You have come up with some of the more ridiculous expectations - foreign visitors or residents speaking Cantonese with minibus drivers, for example (even if you didn't say explicitly that Susie should be speaking Cantonese to the bus driver).
The sad fact is that intolerant thought coppers like you too concerned about the PC attitude of non-Hongkongers to your beloeved second hometown give the unfortunate visitor to HK the feeling he has to blame himself for any outbreak of violence or impatience on the part of Hongkongers; that the same rudeness obtains among Hongkongers too is elegantly ignored. Although we seldom hear about them we know there are incidents of epic dimensions involving Cantonese/Hongkongers. When it involves a laowai the laowai has no right to go public with his or her story? That's tyrannical in my book!
In any of the cities you listed, visitors and locals can complain about rude behaviour, and they won't be shouted down the way you are doing it here.
Instead of flogging that lifeless culture shock horse again you had better come up with some insights into what makes HK such a depressingly stressful experience for LOCALS; do you want to blame the Bus Uncle syndrome on foreigners too? Before that, there was the phenomenon of people using cell phones to hit each others' heads! And for decades now, HK has maintained a sad record of child suicides!
When HK was in the doldrums post 1997, it's adult suicide rate also spiked suspiciously; it was time for speculators to count their losses, and many couldn't cope with it. As I said before, what matters in HK is money, not people. And that's why rude behaviour can be experienced far more dramatically than elsewhere. It doesn't mean that Hongkongers are absolutely ruder than Honoluluians - it just means that rudeness here knows no checks and balances. |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| This isn't a topic rocket scientists or lawyers should enthuse over yet you are excelling at sophistry and twisting and turning arguments. |
Thank you! Excellence is a virtue, I�ve been told. As that�s the case, may I twist and turn a little bit more?  Here are two of your expressions:
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| No one disputes your claim that there are rude Londoners, Parisians, New Yorkers, Johannesburgers. |
And earlier, in response to whether one could replace "Hongkongers" with citizens of any other city in terms of rude experiences ...
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| No Siree, you cannot replace 'Hongkonger" with just about any other name |
Actually, that sounds a bit like disputing the claim that there are rude Londoners, Parisians, New Yorkers, and so on. Perhaps I misunderstood your eloquence.
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| But with apologists such as you the animosiy or antipathy can only grow. You have come up with some of the more ridiculous expectations - foreign visitors or residents speaking Cantonese with minibus drivers, for example (even if you didn't say explicitly that Susie should be speaking Cantonese to the bus driver). |
Perhaps I didn�t explicitly say Susie should be speaking Cantonese to the bus driver. Let me say it now. Susie should be speaking Cantonese to the bus driver  � and if not, then to accept that the Cantonese-speaking bus driver may not understand her version of Mandarin (or English, for that matter). Not sure when I suggested foreign visitors should be required to learn Cantonese for a two-day buying spree, though.
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| The sad fact is that intolerant thought coppers like you �. |
I�m a �thought copper�! And an intolerant one at that!
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| � give the unfortunate visitor to HK the feeling he has to blame himself for any outbreak of violence or impatience on the part of Hongkongers |
Is Susie a visitor now? What happened to her local husband? And if she�s a visitor, surely she shouldn�t be looking for illegal work! Shame on you, Susie! At least, according to Roger.
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| In any of the cities you listed, visitors and locals can complain about rude behaviour, and they won't be shouted down the way you are doing it here. |
I�ll try to whisper next time. I am a bit confused about the following though:
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| It doesn't mean that Hongkongers are absolutely ruder than Honoluluians - it just means that rudeness here knows no checks and balances. |
Wouldn�t the latter (�rudeness here knows no checks and balances�) slightly, in a non-shouting way, contradict the former (�it doesn�t mean that Hongkongers are absolutely ruder than Honoluluians�)? Perhaps my sophistry skills are a bit rusty.
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| Although we seldom hear about them we know there are incidents of epic dimensions involving Cantonese/Hongkongers. |
Don�t tell me. You�re one of the �silent majority� too, right?
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| Instead of flogging that lifeless culture shock horse again you had better come up with some insights into what makes HK such a depressingly stressful experience for LOCALS. |
The locals I know seem pretty happy. Perhaps they�re just part of the loud minority?  And, oh, what the heck:
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| do you want to blame the Bus Uncle syndrome on foreigners too? |
Yes, why not. I think Bus Uncle was a Singaporean plant aimed at influencing the Reader�s Digest global politeness report. Don�t you think it�s a little suspicious at how this so-called �Bus Uncle� incident happened just weeks before the report was published? It�s a conspiracy! A trap!
To finish off:
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| When HK was in the doldrums post 1997, it's adult suicide rate also spiked suspiciously; it was time for speculators to count their losses, and many couldn't cope with it. As I said before, what matters in HK is money, not people. And that's why rude behaviour can be experienced far more dramatically than elsewhere. |
Still ignoring your own source of authority, the Reader�s Digest report, Roger?
As for suicide rates, the WHO puts China ahead (in a negative way) of HK overall at 13.0 / 100,000 and 14.8 / 100,000 for men and women (13.9 average) versus 16.7 / 10,000 and 9.8 / 10,000 (13.25 average) for HK. Both the same year (1999), after the doldrums in HK post 1997.
Let�s see how that compares elsewhere, shall we? If, of course, you don�t mind some more sophistry. Those figures compare to 13.55 in Korea, 15.3 in New Zealand (they�re a pretty polite, non-money-grubbing crowd, aren�t they?), 17.75 in France, 22.75 in Finland, 34.25 in Latvia, 41.25 in Russia, and 45.85 in Lithuania. Money grubbing, rude Singaporeans scored just 9.45.
Don�t� you just hate it when facts get in the way of fantasy? |
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Susie
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
Location: PRC
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kowlooner wrote: |
| By the way, is anybody else wondering whether Susie concocted the whole event just to have some fun on the forum? |
I believe that you believe my original story, Kowlooner, but my belief in your belief in my story is irrelevant to the facts as they happened on that night, namely that my map touched a Hong Kong woman's hair ever so lightly as I sat behind her on a residential bus and she ripped my map out of my hand, tore it in the process and threw the pieces at her feet on the floor.
Last edited by Susie on Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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And for today's sermon, we consider these wise words:
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| Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. |
Pretty much sums up my perspective on this whole drama. |
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briandwest
Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Completely agree.
"Life is a Mirror!"
'Nuff said. |
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briandwest
Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Completely agree.
"Life is a Mirror!"
'Nuff said. |
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wildnfree
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Kowlooner,
This is for you:
I find your comments insulting to the very core. Why dont u just wear a sign in chinese that says "Im sorry Im not a Local Chinese, I hate myself" ? |
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Smoog
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 137
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
I also disagree with you over your cavalier attitude to the chagrin of a westerner; just chalking it up to the spongey notion of "cultural shock" doesn't work very well in a cosmopolitan place such as HK! Has it never occurred to you that a person who finds herself in such hostility as Susie explained most of all needs, even deserves, solidarity from the fellow passengers? Now this is what makes a westerner feel vulnerable: he or she can count on no moral or physical support because Chinese don't interfere in squabbles involving total strangers.
If this had happened in Paris or in London, I am sure a fellow passenger would have tried to pacify the two adversaries. |
Wouldn't happen in London? Hmmm.
Well, I guess this never happened then:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/south_yorkshire/4977822.stm
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Racial assault on bus passenger
Police are hunting for a man armed with a metal bar who racially abused a 60-year-old Asian man on a bus...in Sheffield. |
Nor did this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/gloucestershire/4664958.stm
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Teenager racially abused on bus
A 17-year-old boy was punched and had racist abuse shouted at him while he was travelling on a bus in Somerset. |
Or even this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5180272.stm
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Appeal over bus racism incident
Police in Edinburgh have appealed for witnesses after two Asian women were racially abused. |
And last, but nor least, this didn't occur either:
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/display.var.895777.0.screams_ignored_as_girl_12_is_attacked.php
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Screams ignored as girl, 12, is attacked
A 12-year-old Jewish girl who was beaten unconscious and robbed by anti-Semitic yobs on a bus has spoken out at her disgust that no-one came to her aid.
The girl, who does not want to be identified, was stamped on several times in a racist attack lasting around five minutes while on board a 303 Metroline bus in Mill Hill, north London. |
Damn! I hate it when the media makes shit up like this! Don't you? |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| wildnfree wrote: |
Kowlooner,
I find your comments insulting to the very core. Why dont u just wear a sign in chinese that says "Im sorry Im not a Local Chinese, I hate myself" ? |
So you just insult him in return? That's about as mature as getting around Hong Kong carrying a grudge against all Hong Kongers because of the behaviour of a few bad eggs. As my previous posts on this thread showed, my wife and I have been verbally abused in Hong Kong, but I'm not going to carry a chip on my shoulder for it. I for one will stand up for the vast majority of Hong Kongers who are decent people. Sure they lack a certain warmth on public transport systems, but I find many to be very affable in person. I am certainly treated well in my workplace, and have good relationships with my colleagues. If you want to survive in a foreign culture you have got to learn to accommodate the locals to some degree, not get your knickers in a knot every time someone stands on your toes. That takes a bit of humility, and a dash of people skills. |
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surrealia
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 241
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:29 am Post subject: |
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This is the thread that never ends
It just goes on and on my friend... |
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kowlooner
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 230
Location: HK, BCC (former)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I don't check this site quite as often as before.
I think Wfree just wanted to stir things up a bit since the forum had returned to its former placid state. I must admit I don't understand the source of his indignation nor the purpose of his oh so witty question, but it's hard to take seriously the comments of this four-year veteran of HK when his primary beef appears to be that Chinese chicks aren't loose enough. (http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?p=450722&highlight=#450722)
Other than that, he sounds quite well-adjusted to life in HK. Some snippets of wisdom from young mister wildnfree:
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�Dont learn cantonese. I hear comments about me everyday cause people think i dont understand. Its not cool, and gets u down - even when u tell every single one of them off.�
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�You will always be on the outer.�
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�CHINESE Dont WaNT TO CHaT TO NON CHINESE IN CHINESE - in other words, racism.�
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�Maybe we should give them a taste of their own medicine. Bac in England, USa or Oz - just spea to any asian person in cantonese. balinese, thai, Japanese - who cares? see how segregated they feel.�
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�No racism in Hong ong? No racism my rear.�
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�no excuses, no watering it down, just see it for what it is- racism.� |
But perhaps he'll find it all better in Spain (or Latin America), his apparent destination for whenever he can manage to escape from HK.
On another note, has anybody else had problems with their PM function? I've received a few PMs but I'm not sure if my replies ever get through. So to those who've PM'd me, I promise I've replied! |
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wildnfree
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| You have way too much time of your hands... |
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wildnfree
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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As someone has already mentioned, you need to stop blaming the victim.
You seem to give your ego erections by being so snooty and insulting to people here.
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| when his primary beef appears to be that Chinese chicks aren't loose enough |
What on earth is this suppose to mean? Sarcasm, I suppose.
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| I don't understand the source of his indignation |
Your entire attitude is offensive - thus the source of my indignation. Who would say such a thing as this?:
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| By the way, is anybody else wondering whether Susie concocted the whole event just to have some fun on the forum? |
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