Job Discussion Forums

[kuberkat]

Timmyjames, thanks for your input. (1976 was a great vintage, yes!). As to the kindergarten style training, I sadly must agree with you that many of the "shining stars" who make it into that inner circle you mention (they exist: fear them) tend to forget that anyone else can actually progress past age five. As in so many other places, the best people move on. The trainer who taught me so much about teaching, lifted me spirits when they were stewed and earned every ounce of my respect did so and left all too big shoes to fill.

I completely understand your opinion and in my two neverending years at Hess often felt the same. Even so, I stick to my guns in saying that for a newcomer with no teaching experience and no connections in Taiwan it is as good a start as any. And for people who enjoy the televangelical ra-ra of the Hess Inner Circle, those opportunities do exist. Though I'm not one of them, I am in no position to criticise that choice. I find it hard, though, not to criticise that all-too-prevalent foreigner-in-a-rut lifestyle of the many who learn no new skills, drift aimlessly from job to job and salary to salary and lamei to lamei and have nothing to show for it. We owe ourselves more than that.

[sbettinson]

Hi all,

An interesting post by the original poster Andrew. My personal opinion is hat off to anyone who feels that their job is both rewarding and what they feel is best for them. We are all different after all and who are we to criticise another's lifestyle choice. Be more concerned with your own decisions than that of others. I have in the past offended a few people by going off on a rant of how we should all get off our backsides and see the world because there is more to life than the crappy town where I am from. But, it isn't for everyone and I have come to learn and respect that.

I was like Sanchong. Before coming to Taiwan I completed my degree in Computing/I.T. and went to work in that field for two years working in sales & marketing for a well respected training company. I found that the colleagues I worked with made the difference and that is why I stayed with the company for as long as I did. Being perfectly honest though, working in that kind of environment wasn't fulfilling in the slightest and it didn't make me feel "whole" as a peron. The money was good but I felt that my job didn't have any real meaning to me or to those I dealt with. What I could see as being the real reward of the environment I was working in was the trainers we employed. The work they were doing was actually benefitting the people they were training and I could see a real connection between the trainers, trainees and the reward factor of that kind of job. I had always fancied the idea of teaching and also getting into the ESL field as some friends of mine had done it and said it was fantastic. After a while and a lengthy process I settled on Taiwan.

I came here off my own bat and looked around for a job and it just so happened that I had heard lots of good things about Hess and I liked the idea of a large company and the safety net that it provided being new to teaching and not knowing anyone or anything in Taiwan. I had prepared to battle it out myself but the offer that Hess gave me in terms of setting up, training, finding a home, a circle of friends in the same boat the offer was too good to resist.

After a year working in Hess I did find all of those problems that were previously mentioned - the major ones being homework and unpaid hours but putting those small and quite honestly, trivial matters aside I have many more positive experiences that far outweigh the negatives. I admit that some schools are better than others under the Hess umbrella but I think if you are openminded, willing to accept that you are here to do a job and that in any job you would be expected to put in some extra hours to get the job done and not always at extra pay. I admit that when you first start out in Hess those unpaid hours become ridiculous as you take hours to grade homework and plan lessons but it can be done quickly as time goes on.

If you actually look at how Hess pay you, you are paid for 2 hours of teaching but you work 50 minutes, get a 10 minute break and then work another 50 minutes and then there is 10 minutes after class which you are still being paid for. In essence there is 20 minutes of downtime in which you can grade homework and get paid for it. Being a realist you won't finish it all in that time but it is a start. I also know that not many jobs in Taiwan will pay for lesson planning time, so I don't see that as being a problem for me. The homework itself is also quite a good way to see how your class is coping and how you can help them with any difficult areas. I do however, want to scream when you are unlucky enough to have a class of 25 kids!

After working in Hess for a year I was offered a position in middle management as a Head Native Speaking Teacher and while the money is pretty crappy and the extra responsibility can be troublesome I am glad I took on the position because it is giving me some good experience working in that kind of environment and will definitely help me to find a better job later down the line. To say you have worked as a manager in a large company in a multicultural environment would be very advantageous in an interview. I don't know, maybe I am wrong, if anyone would care to correct me. In the job I also feel I can help pass on the experience I have gained to new incoming teachers and perpetuate some of the hospitality and helpfulness that I was afforded on arrival.

My intention is to stay in Taiwan for a while and continue on the path I have made for myself. I feel I have achieved a lot and feel good about what I am doing and feel there are more opportunities here and in Hess than what I might get anywhere else. The grass may be greener but I don't feel I need to go take a leap and chew that cud just yet.

A lot of TEFL people are in it for the career aspect and a lot are in it because they just want to use the opportunity to travel and work. I think there needs to be a mutual respect for both aspects and nowadays employers can see the difference between the two. Those with experience can get those plum jobs and those without may have to settle for those jobs that aren't so great and that is often the same with any job you do. What you must remember though is that either way, you are doing a job and why not aim to give 100%, particularly if like most TEFLers in Taiwan, you are lucky enough to be just teaching for 4 to 6 hours a day, having fun, making a difference to kids lives and getting paid for it, and not sat behind a desk for 9 hours a day looking at spreadsheets.

I have chosen my bed and am very happily lying in it.

Shaun

[Northwood]

Some nice posts here. Well balanced stuff that has helped me understand a lot more. Yes, it's your bed, so that's what's all important.

Mine is a 4 poster king size, with silk sheets and 10 perfect pillows. I wish!

Respect to you all.

Northwood.

[atiff]

[atiff]

[kwj]

I have been following the few threads that relate to HESS for a while and thought that I would weigh in with my two cents. First off, I am somewhat surprised at the diatribe levied against Andrew by one of the posters. I would like to see where the poster is in his personal 'professional development' that could justify such comments. That said, I do believe that Andrew should include in his byline that he is in the upper management at HESS so that all of his posts inform the reader of the source.

Those of you who are reading these posts about HESS must feel confused by how there can be such radically different opinions about the company. HESS is often portrayed as this monolithic entity, what some have called the 'McDonald's of teaching.' Yet this analogy is not correct. McDonald's centrally controls all its operations � creating strict protocols for content, method and human resources. HESS follows suit with content and method but does not emulate the fast food giant's harmonization of human resources. As such the human interaction element at HESS, arguably the most important facet of employment, is created at the local level and problems are addressed at the local level even if the problem is with this level.

Consider my situation as an example: I currently work in Taichung county under an area manager who I believe is grossly incompetent and somewhat dictatorial. When I informed higher management about her incompetence I came face to face with the reality of HESS. They knew of her incompetence but could do nothing because of her relationship with the area director. When this manager attempted to ignore a contract stipulation we had been promised by the company before coming to Taiwan, the company simply referred us back to her. Fortunately, we had kept written records of this promise and the situation was resolved in our favour, but not without a lot of grief.

Herein lies the problem with saying you work for HESS. For many when they leave training they are forgotten by management. They now work for their branch and for their area - HESS simply becomes the name on the building as they walk in. Talk to 20 different people from HESS about branch practices, their paid and unpaid work, their raises, and their interaction with the staff at their branch and you will get 20 different stories. What is volunteer work in one area could be paid work in another. The highest raise possible in one district can be the lowest raise in another. Therefore the district and the branch become the most important considerations for anyone intending to work for HESS.

So here is my advice to anyone considering HESS: First, don't believe the rhetoric portraying the company as this happy family where opportunity for advancement awaits any who seek it. Most of you will be placed in an area that has virtually no connection with the company and no opportunities for extra work outside your area. Second, get all promises made by your recruiters and by upper management in writing and don't yield to the pressure of belligerent managers who attempt to deny these promises. Third, when you arrive in your area know your contract and exert your rights lest you have the misfortune of having a manager who sees the area as her own fiefdom. Finally, if you have a problem with your area when you first arrive don't expect things to get better and higher management to come to your aid - use the month opt out clause and get out.

Donavan

[kuberkat]

Hats off to everyone who has kept this thread free, fair and respectful. It really is a pleasure to have the right to agree to disagree without any histrionics.

kwj wrote:

[timmyjames1976]

yes....this has been a nice discussion instead of name calling and what not...very nice thread....and i think kwj did a great job detailing the way the company operates

[atiff]

[Pop Fly]

I have never worked for Hess. I did begin (again) at KoJen. Widely held as #s 1&2 in the market, the differences are not vast. As I read this (very civil ) thread, my hypothesis seems further validated.

In fact, atiff sounds to me like KoJen's infamous Prentice....a long time user of this forum. Prentice returned to America just after I arrived in Taiwan, and he, as Andrew seems, was a fair and open resource for foreign staff. AFAIK, after Prentice returned to the USA, KoJen's Taipei head office became less foreigner-friendly. I think Hessians are lucky to have someone like Andrew.

That said, I would like to ask Andrew what he thinks of this idea; Correcting homework during class time? If a teacher could effectively incorporate this onerous task into their lesson plan, would it be frowned upon by management.

Given how information is disseminated in Taiwan's "office culture", I reserve the right to defend and present my case at a later time. For now, I would like you to consider how you would react to information handed up to you that one of your hirelings is using class time to correct homework.

Andrew, I assure you, this situation is wholly hypothetical. I, nor anyone I know of, has ever had this made "an issue" buy management at either Hess or KoJen (or elsewhere). I ask, because with 5 years of experiential hindsight, I would have conducted and planned my KoJen classes to do as I am suggesting.

I am also thinking that if I can change your mind ( I am assuming that your immediate response would be to put the kibosh on any such notion), here, on Dave's, you would try your level best to introduce my idea into your overall philosophy of training young English learners.

Indulge me. For discussion's sake.

[atiff]

[Pop Fly]

Great. Thanks for playing.

Let's first discuss the spelling tests. At KoJen, we had to give them every week. Easily corrected in class. Even making a rote game. Student A spells "socks" wrong. Class recites correct spelling. A class of 20 students can learn perfect spelling from their mutual mistakes. While they are reciting, teacher moves about the room, correcting and identifying problem words while TA or as a reward, a student records the grades. Do this for the last 5-10 minutes of the 1st period, thereby, keeping your break for yourself and not for some mad rush at the teachers' tables.

During the last 20 minutes of the 2nd period, allow the student's to begin their homework assignment, or better yet, a role play exercise that allows them to use, actually "use", the language... while the teacher calls them up, one by one, and goes over their previous week's homework face to face. In this manner, the student gets personalized, immediate feedback.

Now, you can tell me that parents expect children to be seen working at home....well....parents also believe confusian (sic) doctrines make for great language acquisition. So much so, that when I get your students as adults, they are still paralyzed with fear when it comes to making mistakes. Ergo, they don't speak. And this after some buxiban has soaked them for 5 years of education. If I was Ken Ho or some other "laoban", I'd hang my head in shame, if it weren't for the money being piled chin high.

Language can't be learned by rote. Until some major corporation changes it's tune and tries to teach language with a balance of rote and experiential (trial and error) learning, Taiwanese will continue to shell out good money after bad while never achieving any tangible results.

If I was a Hessian teacher, or better yet, in upper-to-middle management, I would be looking for ways to augment the traditional methods with a lot more student centered activities. Chastise the face-stealing, belittling behaviour of laughing at each other when mistakes are made. Fool the parents by giving every kid an A. Keerist on a hockey stick, these kids have enough pressure on them. Let English be a fun time, a time they can look forward to, with no pressure of having to compete with Sally Chou.

So, when they get to me, I don't have to spend the first 6 months breaking them of the fears the likes of Hess, and much worse, the "hard-core" schools, instill in them.

Back to y'all......

[kuberkat]

Though some kinds of correction would not be appropriate in class, some of the techniques mentioned by PopFly and hinted at by atiff should be perfectly legit.

FYI, PopFly, in Hess Doctrine the last five minutes of class should be devoted to doing the first homework question and having it checked by the foreign or Chinese teacher. A very effective trick, IMHO. I always liked the last class for this, because it was possible to stay in with the CT and keep an eye on students who struggled and give them some positive reinforcement. And bond with the geeks who stayed and finished their homework in class anyway!

As to

[SanChong]

It really is an excellent thread. Very enjoyable to read through.

On the Educational "theory" front:

Is the Taiwanese system of learning really so bad? I often hear teachers complain about the education system here. I agree with a lot of their points; things could be done in a better way. There are better ways we could teach English to these kids. However, is the Chinese method of learning really WORSE than the Western method of learning? Which system has more illiterate people, America's or Taiwan's? Which system creates students who speak a 2nd language better: America's or Taiwan's?
I learned Spanish for many years in the US and my Spanish ability is clearly worse than the English ability of the average Taiwanese person.

As I said, there are many improvements we could make here in Taiwan. However, I just don't think the system is all that bad. It does create a lot of fluent English speakers.
It's easy to complain. It's easy to sit back and say: MY country's way is better. Is it really better though?

Again, don't misunderstand me; I'm all for improving things. EVERYTHING can be improved, and we should always strive for that. I just question if it's really that bad to begin with.

[TaoyuanSteve]