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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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 Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| tokyo story wrote: |
| Why should English teachers get their air fare and apartment paid for? English teachers are workers here the same as anybody else. In many cases they get it better than most Japanese -- they earn more, they work less hours, their housing is cheaper, they pay a fraction of what most Japanese have to pay each year. Let's be realistic. This country has gone through a major economic recession. Who in the hell is going to roll out the red carpet after that? |
This Japanese vs. Westerners schpiel is a complete red herring.
Western staff have to travel from their native countries so set up costs are going to high.
Western staff in language schools do not get bonuses. The crumby 'completion bonus' is nothing compared to the twice a year large bonuses which can often almost double an employees salary.
Japanese staff often work longer hours? Depends on the school. True at Eikaiwas but if you are working through a dispatch company you will probably be doing many more classes than a qualified Japanese teacher would dream of.
Housing is cheaper? I don't know where you got this idea from? You pay the same, no discount for being foreign. Eikaiwas that offer a 'housing subsidy' usually just deduct it from the overall salary at source, eg:"Hey my rent's only 50,000 yen!" Yes, but your salary is 20,000 les than it would otherwise be.
They pay a fraction of what most Japanese pay? I don't know what you're referring to? If you mean that Western teachers are usually excluded from the National Insurance system then I would hardly call that a bonus.
So then, take home pay at an eikaiwa is slightly more than an average school leavers salary, but with the above taken into consideration it's nothing to get too excited about. |
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nomadder
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Some schools even charge you extra for their apartment.
Some have begun charging you to have your application processed.
Many have to pay to go to a big city for an interview in their home country.
And as said most pay for their own flights.
So you are paying to have a job. Doesn't show that they value you much.
Not fair if others are getting paid more than you via bonuses, etc. either. |
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tokyo story
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: |
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The majority of teachers coming here are not professional teachers with ESL careers. They're people who want to travel and live overseas. It's all fine and good if you can find those sorts of incentives, but the average person shouldn't expect an all expenses paid trip to Japan. They should be prepared to pay for their airline ticket, pay for their accomodation and receive a monthly salary/hourly wage. It's not that different from living & working in your own country; there's nothing inherently special about the fact that you CHOSE to come to Japan. If you want big bonuses and holiday pay then that should be part of your criteria when job hunting, but this type of thing is diminishing across the board, not just in teaching... I cannot complain about working holiday conditions in this country because I know how much harder it is for Japanese when they take working holidays, nor can I possibly compare my outgoings to those of a Japanese person, since I don't incur a fraction of the expenses they do. I have far more disposable income than any Japanese person I know, earn more than most of my students, have no debt, live for cheaper in Setagaya-ku than a Japanese person could (under normal circumstances) and somehow I'm at a disadvantage?
In the long term things are different, settling here is another matter altogether, but just like in your home country the onus is on you to get a better job... What I wanted to say is that the reality for most people is that they won't -- and in all honesty shouldn't expect -- to get special treatment to do a teaching job. There's an attitude here that people who accept things as they are lower the standard for everyone else, but if you do a job and get paid for it, how can you be hard done by? |
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nomadder
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Why do the Japanese have more expenses than you do?
I see your point but they are the #2 economy in the world and yet Korea and others manage to give more perks. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| nomadder wrote: |
Why do the Japanese have more expenses than you do?
I see your point but they are the #2 economy in the world and yet Korea and others manage to give more perks. |
I dont know Tokyo's age or job status and but Japanese' level of expenses will depend on age, whether they are living at home or renting an apartment, married or single, dependents.
Some one who is forty years old with a couple of kids and a mortgage will be paying out more each month than a 28 year old single foreigner with a small apartment and few strings tying him to Japan. FWIW I know a single foreign female teaching 18 university classes and pulling in close to 400,000 yen a month but has few expenses as she has no family to take care of. I myself am married and a bulk of my income goes on household and family-related expenses.
SIT KOM. Single Income Two Kids and Oppressive mortgage. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nomadder wrote: |
Why do the Japanese have more expenses than you do?
I see your point but they are the #2 economy in the world and yet Korea and others manage to give more perks. |
If you compare by straight GDP then japan is 3rd, after USA and China.
Measured by greatest GDP per capita, Japan is ranked 12th and Luxembourg is no 1.
http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/gdp_ppp_0.html |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Double post.
Last edited by shuize on Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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tokyo story
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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I am 27.
Most of my friends are office workers in their 30s.
I actually debated salary vs. expenses with my girlfriend. She was sympathetic to both points of view, especially the bonus system. She also thinks I've had better job opportunities than many teachers she met at her time working with English schools. I don't think this is necessarily true, but however...
The expenses I was talking about are not only things like taxes, pension, health insurance, mortages, etc., but Japanese customs (marriage, funerals, seasonal gift giving), as well the strange ways that Japanese families pool their money... Whereas all I have to worry about is rent and food.
It's completely different if you're married with kids and a mortage. Or if you're a resident or long term worker. |
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MrCAPiTUL
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
| Yawarakaijin wrote: |
How many of us ask the same question question about second language learning in our own countries. I would say that its taken very serious in Canada. Most of us have at least one hour a day for the first ten years of schooling!
Yet how many of us come out of it not being able to speak a single lick of French? I imagine its a pretty high percentage of us if we dont live within a few miles of the Quebec border or a French speaking community.
In my opinion it always comes down to the resolve of the student. It doesnt matter if its English or Mathematics |
Yes, but resolve is built in many ways. In the public school system, you can motivate kids by requiring them to achieve a certain level, the same as in any subject. There are many fine English exams (like the Cambridge ESOL PET exam) that are very suitable as high school English exit exams. You either pass the communicative exam or you don't get the credit.
And, with young people, a lot depends on how interesting the learning materials are. People have to be in school and surely a communicative language class has the potential to be more fun and interesting than a math class, provided that it's done correctly. |
It boils down to accountability. You will never have a quality education if you can not make the student accountable for his/her actions. Sadly, I see this every day here in the States in the Public School District I teach in. Everybody swears by social promotion, but it has created an atmosphere of laziness and dumbness. You MUST make your students accountable for their studies if you want them to be successful.
I also agree that learning shouldn't always be 'FUN.' That is horse shit. The point of education, in general, is to prepare you for the future using a certain piece of knowledge. When you go to work, does your boss go out of his/her way to make your day. . . . FUN? Geeeeeeeeet the fark outta here with that nonsense! Sure it is nice to spice things up every now-and-then, but it shouldn't be like that all the time. |
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moot point
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Right on with that one! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why should English teachers get their air fare and apartment paid for? English teachers are workers here the same as anybody else. In many cases they get it better than most Japanese -- they earn more, they work less hours, their housing is cheaper, they pay a fraction of what most Japanese have to pay each year. Let's be realistic. |
Yes, LET'S.
For starters, where do you get your information that English teachers and Japanese teachers are the same? They aren't. Most Japanese teachers have at least gone through an internship after studying in college. Most native English teachers have not. In fact, most NETs have degrees unrelated to teaching English in the first place. Salaries. PLEASE show me the data that says NETs get paid more. You might be thinking of monthly wages, but you forget the bonuses.
Cheaper housing? Where did you get this idea? Many Japanese continue to live with their parents into their 30s and pay little to no rent. There is no lower rent for foreigners last time I checked.
Working fewer (not less) hours is probably true for full-time teachers. Depends on the situation, though. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why should English teachers get their air fare and apartment paid for? |
I agree that airfare SHOULD be paid for, but let's face it.
1. Most of the schools here are small ones.
2. Too many bozos try to come here by getting into "teaching", then after they get a visa and their feet on Japanese soil, they bail from the visa sponsor. Kiss airfare goodbye. This is one major reason why airfare is not provided up front, if at all. You MIGHT get a bonus at the end of your contract that makes up for airfare, but THIS is the incentive for you to stick around.
I can't agree that foreign teachers should get free housing. So what if they are transients? You still have to live here, and I see no reason why a person working full-time with satisfactory wages shouldn't have to pay rent. And, besides, SOME aren't transients.
It's a great thing to offer incentives. I had some, but they were rare, and with falling wages now, what came first -- the poor teachers who bail out of their contracts early, or the poor wages? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| tokyo story wrote: |
The expenses I was talking about are not only things like taxes, pension, health insurance, mortages, etc., but Japanese customs (marriage, funerals, seasonal gift giving), as well the strange ways that Japanese families pool their money... Whereas all I have to worry about is rent and food.
It's completely different if you're married with kids and a mortage. Or if you're a resident or long term worker. |
If you were living back in your own country its likely you would pay some of these expenses as well- they are not just limited to living in Japan.
As for weddings, Im not sure what the custom is but here the friends will put money in an envelope and leave it at the reception table for the couple. After the wedding the couple will send back a gift that is about half the value of the money they receive.
In Japan people also give money for funerals but this might be anything from 10-50,000 yen depending on how close you are to the person.
I cant speak for other couples but in our case we have a single income and it becomes 'our' money, not 'his or her' money and I know some foreign husbands that dole out household money to their wives. One may think that is 'normal' while in Japan it may be 'normal' for the wife to control the family budget.
If you have a wife and family obviously your responsibilities will be greater and your disposable income is less. I earn more than a majority of people with my various jobs around the place but disposable income (my pocket money) is less.
You must also factor in things like trips to the 'home' country every couple of years and schooling expenses for bilingual children. If you are single all you have are rent and food and perhaps utilities as you say. (what about pension premiums, life insurance, investments? Do you own a car or a motorcycle? do you spend money on entertainment? they are luxuries but necessary none the less)
Foreigners also have to live outside their own countries, live in a foreign culture and language and exotic that it may be, its still not their own country and it can get stressful.
Foreigners are removed from their friends and relatives back home and may be separated from sick or aging parents. You have to question sometimes whether the wages you actually receive are worth the sacrifice. |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Quality private language learning: Does it exist in Jap |
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| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
[The English education problems that Japan faces (be they private-sector or public) are deeply-rooted, and they reach far beyond just a few hedonistic teachers and corrupt school owners. The problem starts and ends with the Japanese themselves and their attitudes towards English, the foreign community, the necessity of learning the language, and the methods that should be used to teach it.
As long as people think that we should be dancing bears and Barney the Purple Dinosaur, who make learning "fun" we will always face the same problems. No one wants to face up to the fact that learning a language is tough work and being "fun" is pretty low on the priority list if you are serious about becoming fluent.
Here is the cycle:
Japanese people need to improve in their English communication skills.
BUT.....
1. People have a distaste for English because learning it is not fun.
2. Make English fun -- hire more young, energetic Native-speaking teachers who play lots of games and sing songs and smile.
3. English level doesn't improve.
4. Someone suggests that English isn't improving because the emphasis is not on learning English but just having a good time.
5. English teachers recommend a more serious approach to learning English.
1. People have a distaste for English because learning it is not fun. |
Jim, you've really hit the nail on the head here. Companies seem set on the notion that they can't compete and sell their product unless fun is a top priority. English is as much a fashion and status commodity in Japan as it is an educational commodity, perhaps moreso. And that's what I feel many of the privates are selling: the coolness, the image factor, the fun of being someway associated with the ideal international everyperson (kokusaijin). It's almost a kind of corporate, lingusistic branding. English packaged and sold as hyper-kawaii, purple bunnies singing catchy English jingles, followed by some successful "graduate" proudly uttering some near-Japlish phrase (obviusly being read off a cue card). Didn't the NOVA commercial song actually make top of the J-pops charts a couple years ago? I recall my kids singing it (in earnest) at my junior high school at the time. I'm not reducing English education to this issue, but what you say above sure is a very real part of the big picture. |
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