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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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vikdk I am not going to flog this dead horse any longer. I have provdied evidence that pretty clearly refutes your claims. Until such a time as you can provide evidence of your claims then I will refer any further reference or insinuation to this thread.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
I noted that two of the EF schools on your site recieved 2 star (sub-par) ranking, most were at three stars (average or no ranking), along with several 4 stars.
Obviously, if you had granted all the EF schools 4-5 stars, we'd know something was amiss. I've read more complaints about EF over the years than any other school. So that would be too blatent. |
Well anyone who knows EF, or chain schools in general for that matter, would never claim that EF is either a good nor a bad place to work. To do so is fundamentally flawed as some of them are better than others and some are worse and the fact that there is an EF sign on the door makes little difference to ones experience. It is the staff within the school that make the difference. Our ratings reflect experiences in individual schools not a whole chain and to this end all of this talk of an EF banner influencing things is nothing more than misinformed opinion.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| I do know that if I owned a school and paid your site money, I'd expect some support, at least hope that you'd tilt things in my favor. At the very least I'd withdraw my sponsorship if their was too much negative treatment, be it true or not. Of course, there's no way to prove that kind of thing, and I don't know that it's true in your case -but, even as someone who holds no particular axe to grind against the EF franchise, I can't help but wonder. |
Paul did you have a read of that thread that I posted above. You seem to have put the cart before the horse with your comments about withdrawing sponsorship.
We do not accept paid advertisements from companies that we don't believe are acting in the best interests of teachers. So a school that rips teachers off would never be allowed to pay for access to our site in the first place, so there would be no concerns of them withdrawing this support.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| Does EF really have a such a great reputation? Not by what reaches my ear. Now I realize different schools/different circumstances, we can't paint them all by the same brush, etc, etc. But by the same token, I don't think its fair to endorse the organization as a whole based on favorable reports for only a select group of schools in the system -which is exactly what anyone who calls EF an organization with a "good reputation" is doing. |
Tell me Paul, what is wrong with EF in your opinion and what makes it a company to be avoided?
I am fully aware of the sentiments expressed about this company, and also the quantity of comments available online. However considering the size of that company and the number of teachers that it employs in China, the negative feedback that comes in is really only a fraction of the teacher experiences with that chain. I am aware of only a handful of serious complaints about that company from people who have worked there. This is pretty amazing considering that hundreds of teachers have graced their positions.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| I'm guessing your rankings don't account for salary or conditions? I mean shared accommodation would only be suitable for the 18-22 year old crowd. It would be strike to the dignity of anyone even approaching 30. So, even though an EF job could serve as a starting point for the fesh college graduate, it's certainly not a standard worthy of promoting. 40 hours @ 5,000?? |
First off you would have to agree that these matters are subjective. The salary and conditions that are shunned by some may be perfect for others so if you feel that the terms aren't what you are looking for then you are free to find work elsewhere, but this does not make them a bad school nor does it make them a place that should be subject to blanket warnings.
Importantly is that these two things are pointed out very clearly before teachers sign up there. You are free to negotiate these terms or find work elsewhere. It is not as if the school makes you sign up for one deal only to change the terms once you have made a comittment.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| I mean we can't control what employers offer, or what some FTs might be willing to accept, but we can control who we post banners for on websites. |
You still haven't clearly outlined any reason that EF should not be able to place paid advertisements here at Daves or on any other website. I would like an answer on this as it seems to me to be fundamental to the point that you are trying to make. You seem to be suggesting that any site that accepts money from EF is doing a deal with the devil. Based upon what.
As I have stated before EF offers secure and stable positions through legal work that you know you will get paid for. That is more than can be said about some other schools in China but I don't see you making reference to any of them. Add to this the fact that the facilities are generally good, curriculum and training are available, there is support, and finally their schools are generally conveniently located. All of this adds up to very legitimate positions in a very much legitimate company. You and some others may not like the wages or other parts of the deal that EF offers but I disagree with you that not liking the company makes them a bad company.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| Now regarding whether or not it affects your objectivity, you're quite right, no one can prove it either way. |
I think that the link in my earlier post pretty clearly does prove that we are not about money and that our aim is to have a useful resource that is supported by legitimate companies. As mentioned to vikdk, in the absence of any evidence for the contrary point of view on this I will refer back to this thread in future rather than enter into this discussion again.
| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| It's a shame you couldn't find some other types of sponsors. |
I disagree. For all of the reasons outlined above I believe that there is no reason that EF in general should not be able to promote itself on that site or Daves.
Lobster thanks for your comments.
Now that we have all had our say lets get back to the topic posted by the OP. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| You and some others may not like the wages or other parts of the deal that EF offers but I disagree with you that not liking the company makes them a bad company. |
it's not a question of liking or not liking - it's a question of warning about a wage rate that could be as low as 31.5RMB/hour (5000/month for 40hours teaching and office work/week). If that's not worth a post or two I don't know what is  |
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KES
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 722
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You and some others may not like the wages or other parts of the deal that EF offers but I disagree with you that not liking the company makes them a bad company. |
it's not a question of liking or not liking - it's a question of warning about a wage rate that could be as low as 31.5RMB/hour (5000/month for 40hours teaching and office work/week). If that's not worth a post or two I don't know what is |
Clark asked you to provide a list of other schools you'd suggest.
That would be great.
You do have some names don't you. I mean, surely you have some alternatives. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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warning others about something - like the EF pay rate of 31.5RMB/hour - isn't just a matter of finding alternatives - it's about highlighting how general standards could fall if all organisations followed the lead and started to pay such a pittance.
People like Clark with their lists should be able to find us good alternatives - that is if they are free to do so
By the way KES in the context of of your question relating to alternatives - is being able to work at EF ,or indeed any FT china job, a basic right for everyone, and if I wish to attack EF's pay policy, then it follows I must find an an alternative - or are you trying to get me to name more low pay/high hour jobs so we can out 'em all and try to clean up some of that explotation mess that covers this business |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| KES wrote: |
Clark asked you to provide a list of other schools you'd suggest.
That would be great.
You do have some names don't you. I mean, surely you have some alternatives. |
He has never backed up anything he has claimed on this board in the past so I am sure that this is not going to change now.
I think that vikdk honestly believes that he can avoid answering these sorts of direct questions with a quick attempt at a witty remark, a few emoticons here and there, and/or changing the tack of the conversation by throwing a question your way, or accusing the questioner of having a vested interest.
Vikdk the question is a simple one - You have pretty much declared that in your opinion all EF schools should be avoided for various reasons and you claim that your aim is to help teachers by 'exposing' EF. So if your aim is to truly help teachers, and if you truly believe that EF is not a good school to work for, then specifically which schools do you recommend teachers work for. Let's see the names of some schools that are free from any of the things that you accuse EF of? That would be truly helpful.
Yes it would mean that you would need to step from the safety cage of bashing EF on this forum and it would expose you to criticism if others did not agree with your choices, but surely you are man enough to stand up and make your point. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Schools that pay at least 100RMB/contact hour - are a good alternative - otherwise if we as a group of professionals have to work at 31.5RMB/60 minute hour because our needs to get an FT job in china is so great then I'm afraid we seem to have turned into a bunch of professional beggars.
Then again, if as you say, this low pay is approriate for the unqualified beginner then id say a pretty good alternative is to stay at home and get yourself qualified and come out here as a real teacher - In this way you'll surely be able to command a higher wage and like many of the China vets be able to keep well clear of joints like EF |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Not quite the specific answer I was hoping for but certainly a step in the right direction.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Schools that pay at least 100RMB/contact hour - are a good alternative |
Well obviously a pay rate of 100RMB per hour is a good thing and I don't doubt that anyone would dispute this but there are other things to factor into the equation and that also hold a value for teachers.
1. Many schools that pay RMB100-150+ per hour don't often give a guarantee of many hours per month but instead offer you what they can or what you deserve and this often varies month to month. Therefore a higher rate per hour does not always mean more money in the pocket each month. There are obvious advantages to a company that can guarantee a fixed income and fixed workload each month.
2. Often those schools also don't provide housing so that is up to you to arrange and pay for. There are obvious advantages to a school that can supply accomodation that is ready for you on arrival and for whuch you don't need to pay a fortune.
3. Additionally many of those schools employ illegally on 'L' and 'F' visas. There is an obvious advantage of a school that employs legally.
4. Many of those schools offer limited or nor teaching materials, curriculum, or training. This suits some people just fine as they like the freedom that this offers, but for most people having resources available to them is a bonus and saves one from having to spend one's own money preparing or purchasing materials.
5. Most of these schools would be private training centers and most likely independant or small chains. This in itself is not a bad thing, but there is a value in working for a chain that can offer you opportunities outside of the city or even that country that you are in.
6. Most of these schools just need teachers and therefore promotional opportunities and the pay raises that go with these are limited or non-existent. There is a value in a school that can offer promotional opportunities and opportunities to earn more.
So it seems to me vikdk that the biggest complaint that you have about EF - wages - is based upon figures that you have calculated with flawed logic as you are not taking into account the benefits of the job. You are in effect comparing apples with oranges.
I would still like to see some names of schools that offer what EF offers but pay RMB100 per hour. This is the question as this is what makes your post and opinion useful for teachers. It is all well and good to say 'this is no good' and 'that sucks' but sometimes you really need to step up to the plate and actually point people in the right direction. Now is the time. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| well Clarkie your the boy with the big un - list I mean - maybe your fine buxiban site could start to give us advice on those higher paying jobs - then it really would be doing a usefull job, instead of bolstering the activities of those low paying organisations. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Vikdk, I will just quote from my earlier posting here as the same still applies:
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| I think that vikdk honestly believes that he can avoid answering these sorts of direct questions with a quick attempt at a witty remark, a few emoticons here and there, and/or changing the tack of the conversation by throwing a question your way, or accusing the questioner of having a vested interest. |
You are the one who is suggesting that EF is underpaying so therefore the onus is clearly on you to provide evidence of other high paying jobs that offer the same benefits that EF offers. It is not all about the hourly wage! So stop ducking and weaving and actually provide some firm information that can help a teacher head in the right direction. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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i'm sorry clark of course I have to realise that working long hours for low wages in china as an FT is a basic human right - there must be an alternative - otherwise worldwide anarchy and collapse
duhhhhhhhh quite a line of argument Clark - you gott me on der run |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Well just as I presumed from the beginning. It seems that vikdk either has no information to offer here or is concerned that he may get panned for what he might say. I think that we can probably leave this thread right there vikdk - unless of course you have another 'witty' line or two and some emoticons that you would like to add. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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deary me you have got me stuck - so let's go back to something we talked about earlier that was never really cleared up -
dearest clark I've been having problems finding the about us page on buxiban - you know getting the profiles of those people involved in compiling the site -just see if they work for some school chain or something - trying to verify the independence of the site - you got a link to that page you could share with us  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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what alternative is there to stoney silence - methinks the man dont want to answer  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Vikdk, I will just quote from my earlier posting here as the same still applies:
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| I think that vikdk honestly believes that he can avoid answering these sorts of direct questions with a quick attempt at a witty remark, a few emoticons here and there, and/or changing the tack of the conversation by throwing a question your way, or accusing the questioner of having a vested interest. |
If you want me to take your questions seriously then at least show the respect of answering questions that I ask of you. At least my questions are relevant to the thread which can't be said for your witch hunt.
If you have questions about that site why not take them to that site. if you have something further to add about EF then why not add it. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| you good man mr lriswald - big boss man she say led envelope now vewy thick |
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