Job Discussion Forums

[whatthefunk]

[PAULH]

Obviously there are different levels of what it means to be fluent. A person can fluently ask for directions or make small talk on the street, or you can be one of these chattering heads like Dave Spector, who speaks japanese better than many of the locals.

I cant find an equivalent chart for Japanese but for reference guidelines for the difference levels of fluency when grading TOEIC may give you some idea of 'fluency'

http://www.toeic.or.jp/toeic_en/toeic/images/whats_t_graph.jpg

I CAN say categorically its impossible to become fluent in Japanese in one year unless you have a photographic memory. Level 1 takes 900 hours or at least a year of full time study without working. that just covers Kanji and reading.

To sit back and listen to people and let the language flow all over you may work for you (you are essentially gaining input by listening) but proficiency also requires output, i.e. speaking and writing the language. You cant expect to learn japanese by osmosis. Babies take two years of listening to their parents before they come out with recognisable words and later sentences. There are of course foreigners who live here 10 years and still can not speak Japanese despite hearing it every day.

Of course Im not Mormon and people learn language in different ways, but you also have such things as register, socal appropriateness and context. There are mormon missionaries that hang outside the train station near my university and its my guess they are not really interested in making friends with Japanese but in making converts and inviting people to a prayer meeting. Your choice of language will reflect what you want to achieve, You want to make enough of an impact that you can 'persuade' a person to your point of view. Did you have an alterior motive or were you genuinely interested in people?


What was the content of discussions you had with people? Was it one way or did you engage in debate and discussion on the sidewalk?

[JaredW]

I hope I didn't come across overbearing or like a know-it-all. I don't. But, I can just say from personal experience that most missionaries were able to hold a conversation with a native speaker for over an hour after only a year in country. That was common for the majority of foriegners that were missionaries.

When Lucky asks what respectable means, I agree that is a relative term. What I mean is that they were able to have a conversation with a Japanese person beyond the kind that elicits the infamous, jouzu desu ne.

Yes, missionaries are suppose to converse but there is a necessity to just sit back and listen, IMHO. No you can't learn by osmosis but the guys that I knew that sat back and looked up words in their dictionary while their senior missionary did the most talking were the ones that learned the most.

I stand by my advice on Kanji. I wouldn't even begin learning until you could converse comfortably with people.

Also, Lucky I think that you and me could agree on a lot when it comes to language learning. I could learn a lot still. But I do disagree with you that if one were to master the first Dictionary of Basic Grammar they should go on to the intermediate. I had a couple of friends that were Japanese that told me that they wouldn't bother with the intermediate book because the bunpo made their brains hurt. But don't believe me. Take that book to a Japanese person and have them take a look.

Finally, I know these methods may be unorthodox to some. But all I can do is tell you what made many of my friends and I successful in the language. If you have a better way, by all means use it. But, I would suggest asking the gaijin that acquired a native-speaker-like level of proficiency about how they learned.

[MrCAPiTUL]

Well, right now I'm using the Genki book by the JPTimes. I also have a book called Kanji & Kana, which is basically a Kanji dictionary (though, it does go a little more indepth than a normal dictionary). For listening, I try to watch as many japanese movies as possible. Not anime, but regular movies w/more natural speech. I was progressing fairly well, got in a car wreck, and didn't study for a few months. Damn did I take a hit in terms of what I knew! Basically, I have to go back and review a lot of the stuff I thought I had learned. Figured I'd ask for any strategies.

On a slight side note: I once had a Cultural Anthropology teacher that said something to the effect of - you know you are fluent in a language when your thoughts are being processed IN that language and you realize, wow - i'm thinking in this language.

Thoughts on that, anyone?

Btw - thanks for the input, thus far.

[taikibansei]

[luckyloser700]

[kdynamic]

Your study methods for Japanese should vary greatly with your goals. Unless you are going for overall fluency, then you need to study in the best way to address your needs. When people ask me what they should do to study Japanese, I always have a long talk with them about WHY they want to study it and WHAT they plan to use it for.

[cornishmuppet]

For my two cents input, I'd first agree with most of the comments, with a couple of exceptions.

For me, Japanese is way too 'foreign' a language to be learnt by osmosis methods. I lived in Italy for a year and barely studied, but came away with perfectly good survival skills from just watching the tv, hanging out in the pub, etc. I've been here almost two years now, and narrowly failed JLPT3 last December, which i hope to blast through this year. You really have to study. I went to volunteer classes, and in my first year did one book (minna no nihongo) twice. Then I did book 2, and then changed my job so I couldn't attend the same class, so am studying it for the second time now. Every so often I pick up book one and find stuff I've forgotten/missed.

I got stuck in to kanji at the end of my first year, via cards. Now, I would disagree with Jared and say get stuck in straight away with kanji - I sincerely wish I had. In less than a year I know 500, I could know twice that my now. Saying that, I don't think writing them is so important. I can read loads of signs and simple texts, but I can write perhaps 100, if that. Reading is very important, writing not so as you can just use hiragana.

My speaking, though, sucks. I can get by in most situations, but I know down sound like a floudering moron. I have few Japanese friends, the others I know from bars etc are blatant eigo bandits, and my Japanese girlfriend speaks excellent English. We have the odd strained conversation in Japanese, but not so many. I have gained from working in a Junior High School though, because I talk to most of the kids in Japanese.

[lanems]

I've been in Tokyo for a few weeks on an internship through Tokyo Co-Op. I use Japanese every day at my internship, but I find the 4 years background I've had at college less than helpful. I've been making lists of terms I hear at work from colleagues and trying to learn the essentials (like verbs for stocking shelves, carrying boxes, survival kind of phrases for my internship).

In my college courses we were reading newspaper articles and academic texts... So while I can read an article on the Aging Society of Japan or a short story by Mishima, I found myself unable to explain an incident I saw on the train or follow my bosses instructions for shelving a new order of books. If you are living in Japan and in a certain environment it is best to learn what you immediately need. I've spent hours and hours memorizing kanji and verbs I may never use.

I can excel with certain kinds of conversations, like self introductions or explanations about my studies in college, but other kinds of conversations I can't get past a few broken sentences. I think it's best to focus on one type of conversation and try repeating this conversation with different people as much as you can. It's repeatative and boring, but it's good practice and helps to narrow the scope of study.

I was wondering if anyone has any advice for studying for the Nouryoku Shiken 2-kyuu... I'm going through two study guides that focus on Kanji and reviewing grammar. I think they're helpful but I'm having a hard time retaining the information on top of memorizing phrases and terms necessary for my work.

[kdynamic]

lanems, I think you are in a better position than you know! With your foundation, just give it a little more time and things will start to fall into place. At your level the number one best thing you can do right now for your Japanese is to make friends who don't speak English. I guarantee that if you hang out with Japanese-only speaking people, watch only Japanese TV, look up all the new words you hear, and basically avoid English and use Japanese for your daily life, in three months you will have come lightyears and be doing very, very well. It just takes some time to make the shift from classroom Japanese to real-world Japanese. Don't get frusterated or think that your classroom study wasn't worthwhile - it was! It will start to click soon. Go make Japanese friends.

Note that this is my advice to someone who studied for 4 years before coming and has already gotten a solid foundation. This approach will not work well for someone starting from nil.

[Genkikiwi]

just was reading this on Gaijinpot and thought it was relevant to this thread

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1 Tools every Japanese language learner should have

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I just thought someone might find it useful if I posted what I�ve found to be the most helpful in my quest to become fluent in Japanese. I�ve put a list of these things on my website at http://www.rustinthought.com

If you guys have anything to add to the list or any questions just let me know!

Jyare

[luckyloser700]