Job Discussion Forums

[Lobster]

Many of us come here with the intent to learn Chinese, but sometimes workload, partying, frustration or sheer laziness prevent us from making the progress we'd hoped for. So, how much time are you spending each week on dedicated Mandarin study?

[no_exit]

I answered with "already fluent and literate," which is probably a bit of an exaggeration, but not too much.

I don't really dedicate any time to the actual study of Mandarin. I studied it for some three years when I was in college, which was more intense than anything I've seen from any language program here in China. For the first year or so while I was here made some effort to actually study, pick up a pen, copy down characters, use a book. Now I just pick up the newspaper, or a novel, and have a go, and if I can be bothered, look up any new words. With a non-English speaking boyfriend, I spend at least half of my awake time operating in Chinese, not to mention phonecalls to friends, work-related Chinese (my Chinese business partner doesn't speak English), and functional Chinese. I still find things to learn, and my knowledge of chengyu is so limited it is pathetic, but, that said, I am at a point where I can understand 80-90% of what is said to me in the course of a day. Just now I was stumped trying to translate "built-in effects" for a guy who went into my boyfriends shop trying to buy a sound mixer, and that would be the kinda stuff that normally stumps me -- specialized vocab that I wouldn't have had a chance to learn.

Lots of foreigners are here in Kunming only to study Chinese. They don't work or do anything else besides study, but few make real progress with the language. If you don't go out of your way to make some local connections in Kunming, you can easily get caught up in the foreign social scene and completely neglect your Chinese. Just like I tell my students, there is no beating actual language immersion when it comes to learning fast, and no matter how much book studying you do, if you never utter a word of Chinese outside the classroom, you'll have a hard time becoming truly fluent.

[prof]

I became fluent in a year.

I immersed myself in a Chinese environment (Wuhan) with my books, little money and a burning desire to learn.

With the help of (1) lack of money to do anything beyond study or drink local brew with the local pengyoumen, and cause trouble with the local laohulimen (2) zhentou chatter with some local xiao jie (3) an almost religious like devotion...

I came out of it fluent, ala DaShan.

It can be done.

Is it easy?

NO!

Can it be done?

Yes.

As my blackbelt was earned through dedication and sacrifice, so was my mastery of putonghua, among my other languages...

You want it? EARN IT!

And this has led to a very lucrative TEFL career as well as the career I'm currently enjoying in Corporate China.

Study up...and see you on the Bund, baby.

[sheeba]

I found that a little difficult to grade there Lobster . I'm about a 5.5 on the scale . I try a bit each day normally and then I do like 3 hours a day for 2 months followed by a few weeks doing nought and then back on the case again .

I am not what I could call fluent yet . I am Pre-Intermediate I guess but rolling onto Intermediate. I find the more I learn the more the hanzi interests me . I buy Chinese newspapers daily and get some of the stories , I listen to the TV and get some of the conversation (especially the World cup programmes which after a month of non stop football talk I was listening to it understanding most of it at times) and I just enjoy using it around town and with Chinese friends .

If it wasn't for the language I probably wouldn't be in China. I find it fascinating to learn . It's not the most intellectually stimulating of things to learn but I think that after some grind and results in communication the feelings of achievement are so great that I never want to leave the place .

Everyone I meet in the UK says that learning Mandarin will be great for the future but I doubt it . If it is then great as I think I will get to fluency eventually .

As Prof states it's not easy and needs dedication and sacrifice. It's that simple really - the more you put in the more you get out . Any Tom , Dick or Harry can learn it they just need the hardcore stamina to sweat it out for the first few years!

[lf_aristotle69]

[no_exit]

I had a translation job maybe a year ago where I was translating customer feedback forms for a certain kind of oil-rig pump! Talk about specialized vocabulary, I had no idea what the stupid thing was in English, let alone Chinese. Creative use of google and English language product catalogues were what got me through, and what's more, the client was extremely pleased with the end result!

Defining fluency is kind of tricky anyhow. Speaking at a normal rate and not pausing all the time to translate in your head is a big part of it, I think. I don't think specialized vocabulary has to be learned in order to be fluent (there are certain specialized topics whose terms would probably boggle me in my native language as well, but I certainly would say I'm fluent in English, heh), but you do have to be communicative on more than just a basic level. Being able to discuss abstract concepts, ideas, to form arguments and defend a stance would be part of what defines fluency to me, moreso so than an extensive vocabulary, or even perfect grammar. [/i]

[lf_aristotle69]

[lf_aristotle69]

[no_exit]

The translation I do is mostly freelance, as was that job. So it was a one-time thing (through a Tokyo-based translation firm in that case), and once it was done, it was done. I'll still get jobs from the same firm, but for different companies.

[sheeba]

[no_exit]

[Voldermort]

[Lobster]

And what does using Chinese to find a better job or improve work conditions have to do with using Chinese in a classroom?

Who said anything about using Chinese in the classroom? How did you work that out?

Gadzooks! This is an utterly disjointed and twisted train of thought. Come on, I think you're brighter than that, Voldermort. At least I hope you are.

RED

[laska]

No Exit, prof--congratulations on the fruits of your labors! I totally agree about the necessity for total dedication and immersion.

I'm always, however, wary of the Marco Polo effect. In Europe, you are constantly exposed to people with really great foreign language skills. You just don't run into that many foreigners, especially white foreigners, who speak great Chinese. It's easy to lose a sense of proportion.

In Germany I couldn't even get my foot in the door as a German-English translator without doing a very technical "test" translation in an area unfamiliar to me. The bar was extremely high. I thought my German was the cat's pajamas, but I barely passed the test due to what was deemed as a barely adequate description of a certain kind of lever motion.

Have you taken the HSK? Can you read aloud a random paragraph at newspaper-level Chinese, as is required in the advanced HSK? Have you tried to read Heng Lou Meng or San Guo? Do you understand 100% of the TV news? Be totally honest---can you write? If you were asked to write a paragraph describing yourself, without a dictionary, could you do it without sounding like a child? Do you really understand most common Chinese chengyu, thus demonstrating at least a rudimentary grasp of feudal Chinese history?

To me, fluency for us (educated teachers) means reaching native or near-native competency of an educated Chinese person. If you can't turn on your short-wave and understand everything they are saying, if you can't pick up a book and read aloud, if you can't write a simple professional letter by hand, there are still miles to go. And there's always another summit beyond this ridge, right?

If you are in the grips of the Marco Polo effect, wrest yourself free and keep studying. Even the sage studies daily.

[no_exit]

laska, good points!

It is true that in China we don't meet many foreigners with good Chinese. We are also constantly being told how great our Chinese is, no matter whether we're fluent or can barely say hello. This would naturally lead to a fairly inflated sense of our own Chinese skills.

I think my Chinese is well above average. I tested at advanced level on the ACTFL test about three years ago. I never took the HSK because it has limited applications for me and costs a good deal of money. I'd like to take the test to be a certified translator (which isn't the HSK) so that I could do translation work in the US if I go back.

I can read books, newspapers, and magazines without a dictionary, but not at 100% comprehension. There are always a few words that escape me. TV and radio isn't a problem. I can type much better than I can write by hand, I admit. I also admit that my knowledge of classical Chinese is pretty crap (but I don't think classical Chinese is essential to be fluent in modern Chinese, but again I guess it depends on your definition of fluency), and my chengyu is limited. I got a job translating the Xi You Ji, which I could do, but it was slow going and required a lot of looking up words and researching references.

I know lots of immigrants in the US who probably have about the same level of fluency in English (after maybe five years there and with a background in the language already) that I do in Chinese. If you asked them about oil-rig pumps or the Canterbury Tales, they'd be stumped, but they're fine with 80-90% of the language, and could probably handle Shakespeare, if not Chaucer.