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luckyloser700
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 308
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Here's my thesis:
Purpose: to show that Scottish people are actually weak-willed (despite Liam Neeson's and Sean Connery's best efforts) and can't live successfully in foreign countries.
Here's the body of my research:
| casual wrote: |
I had a friend who did their Nova training in Nagoya a few years ago.
A young scottish lad didnt bother going to his first day of training and simply went home. Apparently, he was somewhat dismayed by the lack of English spoken in Japan and went home after finding one day of mixing with non english speakers a bit too much for him. |
And, in conclusion (sarcasm used for effect):
| casual wrote: |
| It certainly seems that the braveheart spirit continues to live on within the Scottish youth of today. |
A solid piece of research, if I do say so myself. Only needed one case of hearsay to make a solid conclusion.
Nice post, Casual.  |
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Tottori-Dood
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
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| If in fact this data were able to be quantified there could in fact be corrolation. But, qualitative sampling is a major source of information in many fields. |
I'm not a sociologist in any respect. I was trained in the hard sciences (including a couple of stats courses). Could someone explain to me in layman's terms how you can corrolate any of this "data" since all of the responses come from anonymous sources on an emotionally charged forum containing potentially false and misleading information? |
I actually said this board would be very bias and that the best you could do is gather information that could be cited as anicdote in a previous post. Please don't paraphrase me.
Also, quantifying this data would be difficult, but doable. Difficult in so far as the data set being way too small and moreover way too bias. It is possible, however, given a different topic and a different forum to obtain a sample in which there can exist quantification (is that a word?). His question is nothing more then a survey - like a true or false survey you get in the mail. It is random since anyone can post. But it is bias because this board is notorious for having complainers. Any survey can be quantified and hence his survey (although a very misleading one) is subject to this set of rules. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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You really think this is a random sample?  |
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Tottori-Dood
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
| You really think this is a random sample? |
Please read a stiatistics textbook. I'm seriously done argueing basic definitions to people who have never opened a stats text book (or social science students who think that that one stats class they took at uni to satisfy a breadth requirement was hard - sorry to break the bubble that stats class was not real stats).
Also why do people paraphrase so much?
"Hi I want to look smart so I will paraphrase this guy and disagree...." "... maybe nobody will notice what he said in a previous paragraph." |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If in fact this data were able to be quantified there could in fact be corrolation. But, qualitative sampling is a major source of information in many fields. |
I'm not a sociologist in any respect. I was trained in the hard sciences (including a couple of stats courses). Could someone explain to me in layman's terms how you can corrolate any of this "data" since all of the responses come from anonymous sources on an emotionally charged forum containing potentially false and misleading information? |
I'll try to answer that as laymanny as possible.
A qualitative ethnographic study seeks to relay in depth specific human experiences. It doesn't have to be about stats or surveys at all, in fact you could spend years studying a single person.
Ethnographic method is (very briefly):
Holistic, in that it is much better to study a small aspect in a holistic way rather than a large subject in a less complete way.
Contextualised, ie, the importance of 'thick description' in which as much of the immediate context as possible is taken into account. For example there was a study of how students from different backgrounds managed to live together in a youth hostel. The study focussed on the kitchen area where the study could look at minute details of how people managed themselves in a public space, this can also relate to to wider issues of inclusion and exclusion
& emic, ie, getting inside the meaning of others cultural selves and seeing things the way they see them.
A qulitative ethnography studies the minutiae of a specific human activity. It does not have to involve many people in order to do this, just to study in depth what is being observed.
An internet forum is an interesting study because it is a unique form of community. There are many members of this and other forums who spend more time interacting on a forum than in the 'real' world. Relationships, rivalries, camaraderie, bickering, advice etc...are all present on a forum and regular members feel that sense of community.
The fact that it is emotionally charged and that people may lie and mislead just makes it all the more interesting. Also this is not behaviour that is limited to the internet, anyone you speak to could be feeding you a pack of lies.
I'm not studying internet forums but those that have posted their accounts of their experiences are most likely to be as genuine as if I asked the same questions of a random selection of people in person. A forum also allows people to act in ways they wouldn't dream of doing face to face and even take on roles or personas which they couldn't otherwise. Regular users will have regular patterns of communication and roles which they play, so analysing them isn't as impossible as you'd imagine.
For more info on ethnography in relation to ELT look at, Introduction to Ethnography for Language Learners, Jordanm S. & Roberts, C. (2000), and for some great examples Bonnie Norton and Brian Street have written tons of stuff. |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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With regard to quantifying qualitative data, it can be coded into different categories. In this example, "flaming response", "helpful response", "irrelevant response", and/or other categories. Once data is coded, it can be analyized for correlations, frequency, etc. In my case, Chris21 has a disproportionate number of irrelevant responses.  |
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ndorfn
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: |
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too many questions here, but to answer one, when you first start at nova you are trained for 3 days, kind of.
after that, every job I've had has assumed you know all there is to know, or at least offer no more training, or even pay for you to do it on your own time. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Nova/GEOS/AEON et al. all seem to fit neatly into the stereotype of Western language schools promoting cultural and linguistic imperialism.
HOWEVER, aren't all these schools Japanese owned and run? In which case where does the Western influence come from in relation to the selling of Westerners for the Japanese market?
What model do these schools base themselves on? They seem to all be based on audiolingual methods which have been largely discredited for at least thirty years.
Does anyone know a data base of information regarding private eikaiwa? How many students are enrolled, typical prices of lesson/contracts,government discounts, eikaiwa loans to students, incentives etc... |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Does anyone know a data base of information regarding private eikaiwa? How many students are enrolled, typical prices of lesson/contracts,government discounts, eikaiwa loans to students, incentives etc... |
There is no database of information on the business activities of private companies. They are under no obligation to divulge how many students they have and what they charge. Your best bet is to look at company balance sheets and profit and loss statements of publicly held companies. NOVA for example says on its website that it has 480,000 students or 60% of market share as of March 2005.
http://www.nova.ne.jp
As you know students come and go all the time and no one knows how many actually attend lessons.
Eikaiwa loans to students? Do you mean the consumer financing available to students to buy lessons? NOVA does not lend the money directly as far as I know but students borrow from a NOVA-affiliated loan company.
Private companies data on students etc is privileged information and there is no reason they would publicise it on a website. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| NOVA for example says on its website that it has 480,000 students or 60% of market share as of March 2005. |
Very useful.
| PAULH wrote: |
Eikaiwa loans to students? Do you mean the consumer financing available to students to buy lessons? NOVA does not lend the money directly as far as I know but students borrow from a NOVA-affiliated loan company.
Private companies data on students etc is privileged information and there is no reason they would publicise it on a website. |
Yes I was meaning the financing that is often available to students. Shouldn't be too hard to find out how much interest is usually charged. I heard that student finance services were a major source of income for the big schools.
Numbers of schools and students may be too broad for my purposes, although it would be nice to find a rough estimate. I already know the numbers at the particular school I'm focussing on. At my eikaiwa we were actively encouraged to know as much as possible about the business workings of the company. In fact that was really the only hope one had of being kept on long term.
This kind of information is readily given out by proud recruiters so maybe a few covert job interviews are in order. Would be interesting to asses the whole hiring process again anyhow. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
[
Yes I was meaning the financing that is often available to students. Shouldn't be too hard to find out how much interest is usually charged. I heard that student finance services were a major source of income for the big schools.. |
Then if it was such a big source of income how did NOVA manage to make a 30 million dollar book loss on its balance sheet last year? I dont think it really matters too much on how much it makes from student loans when the company overall loses money.
I dont know what students are paying in loans (I could probably find out, one of my uni students took at a 500,000 yen loan to study at NOVA) but if you look at the top interest rates of companies such as Aiful their rates go as high as 27%. Students are in hock for several years paying usurious rates to study at NOVA and most commercial banks do not touch personal loans without security. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| Then if it was such a big source of income how did NOVA manage to make a 30 million dollar book loss on its balance sheet last year? |
Maybe they'd have made an even bigger loss without it?
Nova's no longer just an English school it's an entire product range of toys, CD's, financial services and god knows what else. Smacks of desperation to me. |
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bethano
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Soon to be Eritrea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Wombling,
I'm also doing my MA dissertation, so can sympathise with what you are going through.
When you say that the Audio-lingual method has been discredited for about 30 years, it's only really been discredited by people who have been trained for CELTAs and the like. My taught course in the UK is dominated by teachers from Mainland China and Taiwan who still use the Grammar-Translation method (somtimes under the belief that they are using it communicatively). Generally, they have stated that this method is more effective due to class sizes and expectations of stakeholders.
Though the Audio-lingual method may be out of date for us, it is perhaps the most effective means of education for your colleagues due to stakeholder expectations and needs.
I'm not having a rant, it's just that maybe it could be a good angle to look at. If you've got access to it Language, Culture and Curriculum journal has some articles on Japan.
I've also found Google Scholar useful for some articles in journals.
Good luck with it all. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| bethano wrote: |
When you say that the Audio-lingual method has been discredited for about 30 years, it's only really been discredited by people who have been trained for CELTAs and the like. My taught course in the UK is dominated by teachers from Mainland China and Taiwan who still use the Grammar-Translation method (somtimes under the belief that they are using it communicatively). |
I suspect most of the teachers from mainland China on your course are from a public school context. Grammar based lessons still dominate high schools in South East Asia just as they dominated Western schools up until the early nineties. Public schools tend to be the last places to move on.
When I said audio-lingual has been discredited I mean that it's been academically discredited, now the debate is over the future of CLT and how to progress.
High schools and private schools all over the world adopt CLT nowadays. True that the CELTA is based on CLT somewhat but most other language facilitators use it also.
Eikaiwas pump out audio-lingual lessons and tart them up as communicative teaching when they have little in common. Another downside of this is that you have people coming to Japan, teaching for years and being taught this stuff and then thinking they know all about communicative teaching. These folks get a shock when they realise they're unemployable outside of Japan.
I don't think that audio-lingual is necessarily all bad as far as the students go. Many students at eikaiwas are happy customers. But this is largely due to their expectations being little more than meeting foreigners and listening to native speakers. Those students that progress in English tend to do so despite the eikaiwa lessons rather than because of them.
By the way where are you studying? p.m. me, I think we might be in the same class  |
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