Job Discussion Forums

[sheeba]

[laska]

Okay, leave out the chengyu and the Heng Lou Meng, which, by the way, is written in vernacular, so not exactly comparable to Chaucer.

Let's take a hypothetical Chinese speaker. The basics... TV news? Can she/he understand it 100%? Can she write a letter by hand? These should be basic tasks for someone with lower middle school education.

I certainly won't quibble about the meaning of fluency. It means different things to a simultaneous interpreter, to a farmer, to a Korean businessperson, to an English teacher.

But if you met someone who had good spoken French, good reading, but who couldn't read aloud and couldn't 100% understand the news and couldn't write a letter without the aid of a computer... would you say this person had achieved a very high level in French?

[no_exit]

Not to be nitpicky, but lots of Chinese have trouble writing by hand. If you don't do it every day, the skill falls away. My Chinese business partner couldn't remember how to write the word 钥匙 "key" the other day. Aside from taking tests and showing off, seriously, what use does a non-native speaker have for being able to write Chinese by hand? I know lots of us like the look of characters, and enjoy writing, but how often do you actually have to pick up a pen and write something complex in Chinese (not for class)? Most Chinese go entire days without ever having to actually write by hand.

What about someone with very poor English spelling? Would you say that person wasn't fluent if he couldn't spell properly without the help of spell check? What about people with extremely poor grammar? If I told you that I second guess my English spelling and would rather have a computer out if I'm going to write an important document, would that make me a non-native speaker? Of course not. I could write a letter in both English AND Chinese by hand, of course, but I can't promise that either would be perfect.

I don't think anyone who can't understand the news on TV claimed fluency. I also don't understand how someone with good reading skills in Chinese couldn't read aloud. I don't think your analogy really applies to anyone whose replied to this post, and I don't think anyone with mere average Chinese skills and complete illiteracy (even though there are loads of Chinese who can't read or write a word in their native tongue, way more than either French or English speakers) would claim fluency anyhow (I've been learning Chinese for a good seven years, and I've done a ton of paid translation work in lots of areas, most of it fairly specialized, some of it literary, but I still don't say I'm fluent. Others say I am, but I disagree. Close, but not quite, as I said in my first post). What is it exactly are you trying to argue here?

By the way, it�s Hong Lou Meng 红楼梦, not Heng Lou Meng.

[laska]

I just want everyone to keep studying hard so that when you run into Da Shan, you will be ready for him.

Not to hijack thread or anything, but it sounds like you have great listening and tones. Do you have any suggestions on how I could improve these?

[no_exit]

This is going to sound ridiculously simplistic, but ...

I improved my listening skills by eavesdropping on everyone around me. On the bus, in restaraunts, walking down the street. I also watched a lot of Chinese TV for awhile (when my DVD player was broken), and usually watch Chinese movies without subtitles. Out of all my Chinese friends, only one speaks English, so I don't even have a choice of what language I speak with my friends -- it is almost always Chinese.

My tones got to where they are by imitation. I never made much conscientious effort at memorizing tones, I just try to say words the way I hear others say them. As a result, I've got a bit of a local accent, and use the fourth tone a bit more than I should, as Kunming people tend to do. When I was in school studying Chinese, I used to color-code the characters in our text, and use highliters, so that yellow would be first, pink would be second, and so on. It helps for reading aloud and matching tones to characters.

These days I just don't really think about it that much anymore.

[Mr D Improbably]

Learning to read Chinese is great, but does anyone else find that Chinese people are on a mission to shatter any speaking confidence you might have? Daily encountering at least one incidence of blank incomprehension/ passers-by bursting into laughter at the foreigner's hilarious pronunciation is kind of wearing... maybe it's a Sichuan thing.

[no_exit]

It isn't really a reflection on your Chinese level. Some Chinese people just have a mental block when it comes to foreigners speaking their language. Like they can't believe this miraculous event is actually taking place right before their very eyes!

Anyhow, Sichuan people can't speak Mandarin for crap, so just tell them they wouldn't know Putonghua if it hit em in the face, and go on about your business. Don't let them get you down. This is one case where sarcasm might be appropriate. "wo shuo putonghua, ni neng ting de dong ma? shuo fanyan ye xing!" " I'm speaking Mandarin, can you understand Mandarin, or do you want me to speak in dialect?"

Yesterday my friend called me and asked me to give directions to his taxi driver. The driver was apparently an out-of towner and started berating me for speaking Kunminghua to him over the phone. I didn't even realize what I was doing. I was all, "this isputonghua man!"

[ColinA]

Whatever one says for or against China, its politics, problems and cultural eccentricities, the language and script does have a fascination for westerners. In the same way, I guess that English has become the preferred 2nd language for the masses in China.
The point missed by the locals is that not everyone is capable or willing to master a 2nd language. I tried to tell my superiors (in 2003, Suzhou) they should concentrate their resources on those most likely to succeed. "It is better to have 10% of the school population speaking English 90% well than 90% with only 10% competency".
In my case I find Chinese difficult but I stick at it. If anything it impresses my students, friends and colleagues. I teach at a high school that lies in a suburb with 10,000 emigrants and has 20% Chinese students (most of whom are atypical model students). If I have a spare I try to sit in on a Chinese class which is a real buzz. So I get to practise as often as I like.
I've done 2nd year at Uni but find that watching the News on SBS is still beyond me.
________________________________________________________
Wo meitian lianxi Hanyu danshi wo jingbu hai bu hen kuai.
wode zhongwen mama huhu!

[lf_aristotle69]

[no_exit]

[lf_aristotle69]

[no_exit]

[ColinA]