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Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Cshannon wrote: |
| I'm still waiting to see how they're going to deal with North Korea. That should be interesting. |
Cshannon, you are a hard person to debate on Iraq. Your statements are logical and make sense.
I still think the occupation of Iraq will lead to nothing good. The Bush administration should of finished with Afghanistan first before starting a second war.
About the U.S. economy being so good. The U.S. debt is at a record high so we'll see how long the U.S. economy is considered doing good.
About North Korea, I read an interesting article about how Iran could be motivated to develop nuclear weapons because the U.S. was quick to invade and occupy Iraq but has put up with so much more from North Korea.
I think and hope the bush administration knows attacking North Korea would be a lot worse than Iraq and invading the North would be of no gain. Iraq has oil and North Korea has millions of starving people. |
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Cshannon
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Big John Stud wrote: |
| I still think the occupation of Iraq will lead to nothing good. The Bush administration should of finished with Afghanistan first before starting a second war. |
Agreed. I think the human toll is too high, with or without the removal of Saddam. At this point there's no credible reason (imo) why things would turn out good for the Iraqis, whether the Americans stay or go.
| Big John Stud wrote: |
| About the U.S. economy being so good. The U.S. debt is at a record high so we'll see how long the U.S. economy is considered doing good. |
This is a big concern for everyone, and if the debt continues to grow it could trigger a recession. On the other hand, the American debt has been way out of whack before (like in the 70's with the oil crises) yet disappeared in like 3 seconds during subsequent boom times. The American GDP is something like $12 trillion, so they've got a bit of leeway. The war deficit still sucks for American taxpayers though, either way.
| Big John Stud wrote: |
| About North Korea, I read an interesting article about how Iran could be motivated to develop nuclear weapons because the U.S. was quick to invade and occupy Iraq but has put up with so much more from North Korea. |
The U.S. is probably more worried about South Korea in the event of a war against the North. Seoul is in artillery range of the border, and though very unlikely, it is possible NK has missiles that could manage to strike Japan. Thus there's just way more at stake economically. Plus it would probably rub China the wrong way too. North Korea is a much more complex dilemma than Iraq.
| Big John Stud wrote: |
| I think and hope the bush administration knows attacking North Korea would be a lot worse than Iraq and invading the North would be of no gain. Iraq has oil and North Korea has millions of starving people. |
The Americans have no reason to get involved with NK unless they a) try to invade the South, or b) demonstrate that they really have ICBMs and nuclear warheads to attach to them that could reach western countries. Otherwise, NK is as good as contained, with starving people as you said. Occupying NK would be more of a liability for the U.S. than an asset. |
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Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Cshannon wrote: |
| The U.S. is probably more worried about South Korea in the event of a war against the North. Seoul is in artillery range of the border, and though very unlikely, it is possible NK has missiles that could manage to strike Japan. Thus there's just way more at stake economically. Plus it would probably rub China the wrong way too. North Korea is a much more complex dilemma than Iraq. |
So true! The only good news about the above is hopefully less people will be willing to come to Japan to teach English so schools will start offering higher salaries to experience English teachers   |
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Teababy
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 514
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
Anyhow I really hope that in the future we will see closer ties between asian countries and less of the scare tactics by all parties. Let's face it the Japanese have far more in common with the Chinese and Koreans than they do with the US. |
Not in the eyes of ordinary Japanese. To them, the Koreans and Chinese are simply "Sangokujin", and the rest of Asia is just an afterthought. Japan considers itself closer to Western Europe and North America than Asia in terms of world view, culture and standard of living. |
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Teababy
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 514
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Big John Stud wrote: |
I think and hope the bush administration knows attacking North Korea would be a lot worse than Iraq and invading the North would be of no gain. Iraq has oil and North Korea has millions of starving people. |
I disagree.
a) North Korea has a homogenous population. There aren't the tribal or religious and ethnic rivalries that wrack Iraq. I can't see segments of the population turning on each other and the US.
b) The people are likely numb and apathetic after years of being treated the way they are. They'll greet US invaders, if not with joy, then with something like curiosity and perhaps some slight relief that their privations may be over.
c) The US has an occupying army in the shape of South Korean forces. Fellow Koreans, of the same bloodlines, the same appearance, speaking the same language, are highly unlikely to be the targets of animosity. If the whole thing is presented as a reunification of brothers, it may go quite well. Regardless, I doubt an occupation will be necessary. With the removal of the leadership, it will simply be a reunification. |
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JaredW
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 105
Location: teaching high school in Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Teababy wrote: |
| Big John Stud wrote: |
I think and hope the bush administration knows attacking North Korea would be a lot worse than Iraq and invading the North would be of no gain. Iraq has oil and North Korea has millions of starving people. |
I disagree.
a) North Korea has a homogenous population. There aren't the tribal or religious and ethnic rivalries that wrack Iraq. I can't see segments of the population turning on each other and the US.
b) The people are likely numb and apathetic after years of being treated the way they are. They'll greet US invaders, if not with joy, then with something like curiosity and perhaps some slight relief that their privations may be over.
c) The US has an occupying army in the shape of South Korean forces. Fellow Koreans, of the same bloodlines, the same appearance, speaking the same language, are highly unlikely to be the targets of animosity. If the whole thing is presented as a reunification of brothers, it may go quite well. Regardless, I doubt an occupation will be necessary. With the removal of the leadership, it will simply be a reunification. |
I disagree with you sir. If a war erupted on the Korea penninsula, it will not be a great big hug fest reuniting families. Hell, the Korean War was started by their own people (the north) that wanted to impose their government on the South. And if the North invaded, the people of the North having been in a cult of personality for the past 6 decades. They will probably be more fanatical than say Vietnam. Think of the Stockholm Syndrome only worse.
No, the peope of N. Korea will have to take out their leader if they want any change. |
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MrCAPiTUL
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Cshannon, it isn't probable that N. Korea has missles that can hit Japan. It is factual. In 1998 they fired OVER Japan and hit the Pacific. If they did it nearly 10 years ago, be assured they can still do it now. |
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JaredW
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 105
Location: teaching high school in Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| MrCAPiTUL wrote: |
| Cshannon, it isn't probable that N. Korea has missles that can hit Japan. It is factual. In 1998 they fired OVER Japan and hit the Pacific. If they did it nearly 10 years ago, be assured they can still do it now. |
Yeah, I was in Japan and actually saw it go over. I was living in Maebaru which is 30 min. outside of Fukuoka towards Saga. It was quite scary.
Last edited by JaredW on Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Teababy wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
Anyhow I really hope that in the future we will see closer ties between asian countries and less of the scare tactics by all parties. Let's face it the Japanese have far more in common with the Chinese and Koreans than they do with the US. |
Not in the eyes of ordinary Japanese. To them, the Koreans and Chinese are simply "Sangokujin", and the rest of Asia is just an afterthought. Japan considers itself closer to Western Europe and North America than Asia in terms of world view, culture and standard of living. |
Yes. But in reality they have far more in common with the Koreans and Chinese than with any Western nations. It's like the US allying itself with Uzbekistan rather than Europe and Canada, ie: it's possible for short term expediancy but in the long run makes no sense.
China and Korea need Japanese technology, Japan needs China and Korea to make it, not to forget the millenias of shared culture and migration. With China in the ascendancy they may become a far more important trading partner than the US over the next hundred years and I doubt the US can hold onto their military influence in the region for all eternity.
As for the US intervening in North Korea...Seeing as how the Middle East just exploded with the US already overstretched in Iraq, threatening Iran & Syria, Lebanon back on the march and Israel going nuts, N. Korea just slipped to the bottom of the 'In' tray, somewhere next to global warming and inventing an everlasting gobstopper. |
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Teababy
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 514
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| JaredW wrote: |
I disagree with you sir. If a war erupted on the Korea penninsula, it will not be a great big hug fest reuniting families. Hell, the Korean War was started by their own people (the north) that wanted to impose their government on the South. And if the North invaded, the people of the North having been in a cult of personality for the past 6 decades. They will probably be more fanatical than say Vietnam. Think of the Stockholm Syndrome only worse.
No, the peope of N. Korea will have to take out their leader if they want any change. |
I tend to think they'll be more like the Russian people in the 80s. The Russians were tired. They had no real revolutionary spirit left. All they cared about was keeping warm and lining up to get enough food to feed their families. They paid lip service to the Motherland, but they were really beyond caring. A lifetime of privations saw to that.
For starving North Koreans, it will probably be the same. Take out KJI and people will likely be lost, confused, but not especially outraged. I'm sure the grief at KIS's death was orchestrated, not real. When you live under the thumb, the best thing is to go along and act patriotic.
When the South Koreans bring food, the whole thing could be a non-event. |
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Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Teababy wrote: |
[a) North Korea has a homogenous population. There aren't the tribal or religious and ethnic rivalries that wrack Iraq. I can't see segments of the population turning on each other and the US.
b) The people are likely numb and apathetic after years of being treated the way they are. They'll greet US invaders, if not with joy, then with something like curiosity and perhaps some slight relief that their privations may be over.
c) The US has an occupying army in the shape of South Korean forces. Fellow Koreans, of the same bloodlines, the same appearance, speaking the same language, are highly unlikely to be the targets of animosity. If the whole thing is presented as a reunification of brothers, it may go quite well. Regardless, I doubt an occupation will be necessary. With the removal of the leadership, it will simply be a reunification. |
You have obvously never been to South Korea. The U.S. can not trust South Korea. Most Koreans blame the U.S. for the Korean war.
The people of North Korea are kept in the dark of the international community. They will view an invasion as fight or be killed by U.S. forces. They will fight to the death.
North Korea does have missiles that can reach Japan and maybe even Alaska or even the U.S. west coast.
Also as pointed out in an above thread the U.S. is alreayd stretched out too thin, and threatening Syria, and Iran.
These are crazy times and getting worse!!!!!! |
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Teababy
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 514
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Actually, I have been there.
The US cannot trust them with what? Occupying the territory and governing their fellow countrymen? I would say that's one thing America COULD trust them to do. They're hardly likely to do the wrong thing by their own people.
And you guys keep missing my point - there's no fight left in the North Koreans. They are starving. |
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Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Teababy"]Actually, I have been there.
The US cannot trust them with what? Occupying the territory and governing their fellow countrymen? I would say that's one thing America COULD trust them to do. They're hardly likely to do the wrong thing by their own people.
And you guys keep missing my point - there's no fight left in the North Koreans. They are starving.[/quote]
For a country that doesn't have fight in them, they do a great job fighting with everyone! Making counterfit money, running weapons and drugs, even defying China and testing missiles.
If the U.S. attacked the North, South might switch to their aid. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Teababy wrote: |
Actually, I have been there.
The US cannot trust them with what? Occupying the territory and governing their fellow countrymen? I would say that's one thing America COULD trust them to do. They're hardly likely to do the wrong thing by their own people.
And you guys keep missing my point - there's no fight left in the North Koreans. They are starving. |
Sure. The people are startving... Why do you think that is? It takes resources to keep a million-man army fed... Don't discount the N. Koreans in their ability to fight. Their leader is certainly insane enough. |
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Teababy
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 514
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Big John Stud wrote: |
[quote="Teababy"]Actually, I have been there.
The US cannot trust them with what? Occupying the territory and governing their fellow countrymen? I would say that's one thing America COULD trust them to do. They're hardly likely to do the wrong thing by their own people.
And you guys keep missing my point - there's no fight left in the North Koreans. They are starving. |
For a country that doesn't have fight in them, they do a great job fighting with everyone! Making counterfit money, running weapons and drugs, even defying China and testing missiles.
If the U.S. attacked the North, South might switch to their aid.[/quote]
I'm sure that will never happen. The South needs the alliance more than the US does.
The NK government might be fighting with everyone. But weren't you guys saying that the people would rise up and violently resist any invasion? Their well-fed government goons might exhort them to do so but, as I said, they're starving. And that includes the soldiers. Starving, stunted runts, most of them. |
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