Job Discussion Forums

[Capergirl]

What do you, as ELTs, consider "good English"?

My ESL students are often surprised to hear the locals speaking English. There is a bit of a "twang" in this area, lots and lots of slang expressions are used (some of which are only used in this region), and they tend to speak really quickly. The students have seen a few Hollywood movies (Titanic, et al) and can't understand why people here don't talk like that. In the beginning, they get discouraged after talking with the locals. "I thought my English was not bad before I came here", one student told me.

Ironically, I felt the same way when I visited England in April and I'm a "native speaker of English" (or so I thought ). I generally have no trouble understanding Hugh Grant on the big screen, and I have watched a lot of 'Are You Being Served?', so I thought I would have no problem getting by in London. Well, I was wrong! I could barely make out a word anyone was saying to me. 'This isn't English!', I thought. 'What kind of jarbled, nonsense language are they speaking?' I suspect that some of it was "kokney" (mispelled to avoid beep), although I am not sure how to tell the difference. They seemed to pronounce a lot of th words with an f sound. For example, thirty-three was "fur-ee free" and nothing was "nuffink".

A local woman at a pub in Bexley Heath attempted a conversation with me. I didn't catch any of what she said, and I asked her to repeat herself...three times. Finally, she practically shouted at me, "Weh...ah...you...frum???"

So with so many different dialects, pronunciations, and spellings, how do we decide on a "standard" language? Is there a standard language?

(By the way, can one of the British ELTs tell me what "cheers" really means? Good-bye? Thank you? Get lost? )

[rogan]

[leeroy]

Where should the line be drawn between teaching students "proper" English - and teaching them the English that is actually spoken!

In London (as Capergirl accurately pointed out) - those two kinds of English are often very different. I feel an obligation to teach students at least some language that is immediately relevant to their surroundings - just last week in fact we went through the

"th" (unvoiced) = /f/ (Nothing = "nuffing")
"th" (voiced) = /v/ (There = "vere").

But, generally, my students will be using English not to communicate with native speakers, but with other non-natives. Here, I think, there is greater need to push towards "general English" - which has been defined by some as "RP".

[shmooj]

Capergirl, this must have been the same trip where you met all those gentlemen

If it makes you feel better, I moved from Suffolk, just north of London, up to Newcastle upon Tyne in the northeast for university.

No joke. It took me at least six months to start to understand the locals. I would ask for help in shops and listen nodding as this person vomited out something unintelligible and then, in a truly British way, say "Cheers." and walk off none the wiser.

I had never before been unable to understand my own language and I have absolutely no trouble believing you had such a tough time in London. Most of my students if they go to England go to London. They never understand a word and they think it is just because they haven't been good enough students. I feel angry that they come back thinking they are at fault. Obviously, it's my teaching.

But then should I really teach them language (for that read vocab, grammar and pronuncation) that they will really hear in London?

Dunno guv

[woza17]

When my son was 6, we were in London at a swimming pool in the East End. He was reluctant to enter the pool and some cockney kids shouted to him"come on mate, jump in the waaer " He corrected them and said its waTer not waaer.
As a native speaker and coming from a multi-racial country I have to listen and understand most accents and the only time I have had difficulty was in Edinburgh at a bar and this guy from Glasgow was speaking to us my husband was Scottish and he hadn't a clue either .
I can't wait till they invent the Babel fish
Cheers carol

[woza17]

You were right when I tried to say the male equivalent of a chicken I was beeped. I thought you were being paranoid , How little I know.
Can't wait to see what happens in the year of the rooster or commonly known here as the rock

[rogan]

Many of my students have found it hard to believe that Londoners, Brummies, Scousers, Geordies and Glaswegians would have trouble understanding each other.

Maybe we should all start teaching the International sign language so that communication would be easier.

[Tong Dawei]

I'm very surprised to hear the comments emanating from this thread as I have always taken for granted that English folk's enunciation of the language was the "correct/standard" way. Granted, I thought the practitioners of such noble speak were rather snobby in their manner, yet, I though that they were keeping alive the Queen's English. All this is with exception to slang terminology and various dialects currently in use around the globe. Interestingly, or maybe not, whenever I come to a word that Americans lazily glide through like "often", or "Wednesday", or "Sandwich" I always tell the students that Americans say offen, wensday, sanwich while the english say ofTen, weDnesday, sanDwich.

So what kind of English should we teach the kids? I think it is the kind that is spoken in the hallways, boardrooms and work spaces in corporate America. Atleast that's what i think they want to learn cause they mostly want to make tons of money and American English is what we use to conduct business around the world. Right? Let me know...

Back to my Chinese lesson... Wo juede...

[shmooj]

[Gordon]

Why don't we teach the dialect of English that we know.

Then we can give examples of how other English speakers say that word. That's what I do, I don't change my accent unless it's to make my students laugh, which is ofen (no "t"). For anyone who hasn't heard about that poor Irish JET girl who is being told by her school in Japan to speak like a Yankee, here it is. Unbelievable.

http://www.eltnews.com/community/?board=general;action=display;num=1063425887;start=0

[Tong Dawei]

smooj, dictionary.com pronounces ofTen and sanDwich but not WeDnesday (wenzday) to my surprise. It was my US english teacher who taught Wednesday (wednzday). My point was that american english was filled with lazy pronunciations. People called the town next to us Clih-eh instead of Clinton. Having never been to England, i based my assertion on the way that Oxford educated people spoke. I didn't recommend a damn thing.

I breathe through my mouth... Do you dare say that I recommend this to you or anyone else?

So, do you have any more smug suggestions for me ?

[khmerhit]

I moved to UK in 1989 and had to rehaul my pronunciation in order to be understood. There was a lot of "Wha?" "Whassat mate?" when I spoke my normal Canuck. Now I am back here, where half the population, ie 2.5 million people, were born in other countries. When teenagers speak at a clip I can make out about a word in 5 or 10. They have this weird lingo -- well. it's just an accent, but quite impenetrable -- that seems to combine Valley Girl and Ukrainian underworld slang.

Fortunately, I can understand most adults, regardless of where they are from. But to answer the question, I recommend teaching standard pronunciations as they are formed in RP, or diluted versions thereof. Just my opinion, but I think it covers the broadest range. Now i really must scapa, guvnor, my effin eggs is on the boil and they're down the apples and pears. Cheers, b'ye!

[dyak]

[khmerhit]

Bitter n mile, mate. Make it snappy, the trouble n strife if ya know wha I mean...

[Capergirl]