Job Discussion Forums

[Serious_Fun]

This was on the Taipei Times site today:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/08/21/2003324177

In case you are not aware, there have been a few articles in the US press lately re: the negative experiences of some English language teachers in Asia.

[SanChong]

It's fair to say that there are problems on both sides of the aisle. Schools are often not run in a responsible and professional way. Likewise, teachers very often have an extreme sense of entitlement and want everything to be done as it is in their home country. A book could be written about the problems in the ESL industry as a whole.

However, the vast majority of schools are run by good, honest people. Anyone who does their research properly will end up in a fine situation.

This is why working with a good recruiter and a good school, is so important.

[Serious_Fun]

[clark.w.griswald]

Knowing Peggy Huang personally I vouche for the fact that she runs a good school system that should not have been painted the way that it was in that article.

It just goes to show that there are foreign teachers with grudges that have no shame in presenting things in a less than honest way in order to cover their own inadequacies.

I do not know John Shaff from a bar of soap but I do know Peggy Huang and have known her for over 10 years. I have no doubt that his one sided and apparently false accusations say more about him as a person than about a school chain that has an overall excellent reputation considering the number of teachers that have passed through its doors in the 20 years of operation and the number of legitimate complaints of a serious nature which by my count are non-existant.

Seems to me that Joy School is better off without the likes of the John Shaffs of the foreign teaching community and I will guarantee that he will complain as loudly about his next job as he did about that one. Somehow I think that the problem lies somewhere else rather than at the school that he complains about if you get my meaning.

[adamsmith]

In this case I may tend to disagree with you Clark. While your aquaintance may run a very efficient and reputable school - she is based in Taiwaan. The school in question is located in Harbin. She is basing her information from a second hand report submitted to her from the school staff and as we all know the chinese staff at a school are not going to paint themselves in a bad way.
Please do not get me wrong here - I am not believing this John Shaff character either. but I would probably tend to think that the problems were originating from both sides of the disagreement.
I work for an out of country school and travel to various schools throughout china that have agreements with our school and I see some pretty horrendous things sometimes in the way the foreign teachers are treated - yet in all the reports we recieve from the school - everything is always rosy, even though we know better.
It is probably a case of both sides not understanding each other, and little cracks growing into the grand canyon.
The original article was definately over sensationalized and I do not think it was overly well researched (did they talk to other teachers that had been to those schools - I don't think so) and if they did they did not tell what their side was either.

[SanChong]

Joy is an example of a franchise school. So, it's difficult to make connections between one branch and the next. Some Joy schools are excellent, while others are horrible. I'm not certain that the head office is very selective in choosing their franchise owners. That said, I don't know much about that process, so I could be wrong.

As Clark said, Joy head office does have quite a good reputation, overall. You just have to do your research branch to branch.

I agree that the article was incredibly one sided. Yes, there are a lot of schools that are horrible. However, there are just as many spoiled foreigners coming over who expect the schools to cater to their every need. A flexible person, who enjoys teaching and is here for the right reasons should have a very good experience teaching in Taiwan.

Again, Pop Fly, I disagree that it's better to come to Taiwan first. I think people who give that advice have been here for a long time. The advice might be a bit outdated. Nowadays, more and more schools are planning ahead and making sure they have a teacher well ahead of their current teacher leaving. This way they don't have to panic at the end. Doesn't that make a lot of SENSE!!

In the past, schools weren't organized enough to do this and plan ahead. However, now, more and more schools are planning ahead and using recruiters to help properly screen teachers. A great example of why is the Jon Karr situation. It's very worthwhile to screen candidates properly and be as certain as possible about who you are getting.

[kuberkat]

In the Taoist tradition of good balance I think it's best to cover all bases when job-hunting. Nobody will regret doing some research online and then contacting several employers. Also, contacting current employees of those schools and finding out what to expect is a very sensible idea. Finally, it would be ideal to arrive in Taiwan with at least five promising interviews lined up. That way you are interviewing the employers, not the other way round. Ever heard of a negotiating position? It beats the hell out of the Kama Sutra and you can keep it for the entire length of your employment. Put yourself in the driver's seat. I for one did not take on this lifestyle to beg for any job that is flung at me, but to find the best place to grow... and eventually to outgrow this industry entirely.

Because I believe in life after TEFL.

[Aristotle]

This is a risk that everyone takes when they enter the market in China or Taiwan.
Joy school has a good reputation by Taiwanese standards, but let's not forget that Taiwanese standards encourage racism, corruption and incompetence.

The original article was not intended for school administrators or parents. It's purpose was to inform potential teachers of the possible pit falls of teaching in China or Taiwan. Claiming that your Taiwanese chain school is in good standing among some in Taiwan is not going to convince many minority teachers to come work for you.
John Shaff should be commended for coming forward with this report as many are too afraid to do so because of people like Brian or Peggy Huang who will go to great lengths to silence them for their own racist and ignorant purposes.
It would also be pertinent to point out that the schools rebuttal came from Taiwan and far too quickly for any kind of investigation. One can only assume that the head office in Taiwan is more than aware of the poor conditions that teachers face in China and like so many other Taiwanese business enterprises could care less about the people involved and only about their profit margins.

[clark.w.griswald]

Adam I certainly agree with you that Joy in Taiwan and Joy in China are not the same, but they are also not polar opposites either. The fact is that the administration and training of Joy in China and the administration and training of Joy in Taiwan are one and the same. So if someone has a grievance with a Joy in China then it is Joy in Taiwan that will deal with that grievance.

[I_is_teach_English]

Clark, I have to agree with your assessment. I have worked for a large chain school (Hess) and after 20 years of experience I'm sure Joy are the same as far as having nearly every situation covered in some kind of Policy Handbook. Hess had one and both the branch managers and teachers could refer to it if a situation needed help resolving. Sure, not every branch and its people are perfect, but I'm sure the school in Harbin were going by guidelines laid down by the head office in Taiwan.
If John Shaff was doing nothing wrong and was being treated badly, I'm sure he would have been able to contact head office, explain the situation and where the school was in breach of any policies. Instead he pulled a runner and provided a sensationalised story ... one wonders why?

Teaching English and living abroad isn't for everyone, but one has to look at the mirror to understand why ... John Shaff obviously found it easier to blame someone else.

[SanChong]

I'd agree that Clark's assessment of the situation is likely correcct as well.

The reactions FT's have to their teaching jobs in Asia is interesting. Often, they will blame the school, the students, the parents and anyone but themselves. The fact is that Asia is not going to be exactly like home. Most schools are totally honest and open with their teachers. We are paid very good salaries for what is really a pretty easy job!

Often, when a teacher is unhappy with how things are going with their life, the will blame the school. It's a symptom of culture shock to lash out at those around you and I think that is what happens a good portion of the time.


The level of responsibility shown by many teachers leaves a lot to be desired. A LOT of the problem is that schools prefer teachers in their 20's. People in their 20's are jumping from job to job back home as well, so it's hard to expect more from them in Taiwan!! (I'm in my 20's also, but I do feel that completing a contract is very important). In that sense, the schools are to blame, because they don't want to hire older teachers. If they did, these problems would almost certainly be minimized.

I think this whole situation goes to show the real cultural differences that can arise living in a foreign country. A lot of teachers come to Asia wanting to make money to travel, drink and have a good time. They don't really come here to teach. Everyone should remember that their job is to TEACH.... and a lot of people really forget that.

By the way, in the above I'm mostly speaking about Taiwan. There are definitely bigger problems at schools in China. In Taiwan, the majority of jobs are honest. I'm not as certain about that in China.

[adamsmith]

I agree with you Sanchong. But in exactly what you say lies the answer. The schools in China are very different. As is the treatment of foreigners here. I do agree mostly with Clarks assesment, but I do not agree with taking everything the school in Harbin said to the Head office Peggy as being 100% correct.
Having been on Mainland china now for awhile and seen how they work I have noticed a distinct character trait of everyone telling their superiors that things are all fine and there are no problems here - and then turning around and trying to figure out how to handle the stack of problems that they actually have. No underling will tell the boss that they screwed up or they wont have their cushy job anymore or they will lose what is considered the all important 'face'.
For this reason I would hesitate to believe what peggys investigation turned up. I hold with my feeling that both sides of the issue had problems with each other and did not have the ability to communicate effectively with each other leading to the situation.

[Aristotle]

Joy Language Schools are all Taiwanese franchise schools and nearly useless in terms of teaching students English.
They have one purpose for existence and that is padding their profit margins.
For any self respecting teacher to state that all Joy schools are great places is an admittance of ignorance and an idiotic statement to say the least.
Good luck, you will need it if you teach or study at Joy Language Schools.
A.

[SanChong]

Yes, I agree with you as well (Adam, I mean!). The thing about franchise schools is that the quality is totally inconsistent. One franchise school has absolutely nothing to do with the next one except that they use the same books. I'm sure that Peggy really does care a lot about teachers and about education. However, she has very little knowledge about what goes on, day to day, at most Joy branches.

Actually, franchises have a pretty negative impact on the English teaching market in Taiwan. Here is why I feel this way: It gave rich Taiwanese businessmen, with NO English speaking ability, the tools to open up English schools. Without this franchising option, they would have almost no way to open a school (or, at the very least, it would have been a lot more difficutl). Meanwhile, people with real English speaking talent, but no wad of cash, failed because they couldn't build a nice, big school.

This is a complicated issue. However, most Franchise operations have very little standards when it comes to accepting new applicants. If you have the money, they will likely let you use their name. They have no English test, etc. for prospective franchise owners. Examples of franchise schools are Joy, Kid Castle, Giraffe, Jordan's, etc.

On the other hand, some schools are all centrally owned. These include Hess and Kojen and Shane (they also do franchise a bit, but seem to have good standards for this). They are much better run overall, becuase they have consistent standards which they apply to every single branch, all owned and run by the Head Office. Again, there are many great Joy and Kid Castle branches, but a school with the
same name down the street could be horrible. There is no consistency.

[Aristotle]

We also must remember that the number of minority native English teachers in China is estimated to be 10 times the number of minority native English teachers on Taiwan.
The Chinese are going to follow the Taiwanese business model which means "English teachers beware".
I think the increased amount of censorship on the web in the PRC will mute many of the complaints or warnings by teachers much like it has started doing on Taiwan.
Good luck!
A.