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Dongguan on a business visa?

 
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bluey



Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:04 pm    Post subject: Dongguan on a business visa? Reply with quote

I have just got a contract in Dongguan, Guandong, very near Hong Kong. I found out it's a new city (a Milton Keynes-type affair for any Brits out there), and I know it's in the Hong Kong industrial zone (North East of Macau). So I'm not expecting top-quality architecture steeped in rich history.

The contract pays HK7000/month, with all the usual trimmings, teaching adults Business English within a company (not a school). Thing is, I know HK and Macau are supposed to be much more expensive than the rest of China. Does anyone know what the cost of living is in Dongguan, relative to other areas of China? I'd be really grateful for any info on that, and on the place in general.

Other caveats I'd appreciate an opinion on: the agency (for, yes, it is an agency) has advised me to fly to HK without a visa, and pick up a 6-month business visa in HK, with their help. Question Duh, WHAT? They say it's because the company is not a school, and has no "expert quota", so I have a business rather than working visa. Has anyone ever done this? Please shout derisory comments and show off your knowledge of Chinese foreign labour law.

Ta.
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randyj



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 460
Location: Nanjing, Jiangsu, China

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Among my less enjoyable teaching experiences, I count the times spent teaching in companies. Companies pay well, but for this a teacher must endure poor motivation (not the students' idea to learn English, but the boss's), spotty attendance (that project deadline looms), highly variable language skills (some students have not practiced English for years), and unrealistic expectations ("We have had class for a month, and they can speak no better than before.") Goals can change at the drop of a hat. I would counsel anyone to avoid teaching for a company.
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Peter



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would support the previous writer in regards to company work.
Middle management people are pushed in these classes; I did so twice. Both classes quickly reduced from 25 to 8 attendants.
Business English is one level up from Standard ESL, but there are simplified text available.
Visa? Yes , it is quite normal to pick up a 6 months visa in HK.
China is one of the most overregulated countries in the world, but reality dictates need here.
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I really would sound the alarm bell!
The salary is acceptable though it should be for no more than 25 contact periods.
However, a training centre will move the goalposts every once in a tiny while!
This means you are going to have a rather unstable job.
And the businesses that pay for their students' English will give their own staff free reign over you. You have to please childish, puerile adults!
"We want to have "free talk"?!"
What's your role in such classrooms, then?
To listen to their cogitations, partly in Cantonese, partly in Mandarin,, a little bit in English.
They bring their mobile phones to class.
They come late.

Apart from these inconveniences, my warning actually is reserved for the legal aspect of your job:
You should NOT consider this offer so long as they don't get you a work visa!

You are going to be an illegal.

Dongguan is a bit weird and a kind of 'wild west'.
It was no town just ten years before, but owing to the influx of Taiwanese it has mushroomed into a conglomeration of townships of ugly factories side by side with rice paddies.
Crime is rather high, and the police happily join in on the wrong side on occasion!
About a year or two before, a shopping mall collapsed, burying a dozen people.
The local authorities tried to cover it up (because more than 10 dead arouse the suspicion of the central government who then calls for an investigation!).
Finally, the truth did come out.

But, yes, you can pick up a business (or even tourist) visa in HK. However, they should upgrade it to a work visa.
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cogitation! Wow!Is taht like, when you have to go to the bathroom, but it just doesn't want to happen, and you have to grunt and groan a lot? Have to look it up tonight.
How do people stay here five years and still remember how to speak English? My friends back home think I caught some kind of virus because I speak so slow, but it seems normal to me!
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Edward



Joined: 04 Mar 2003
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 1:58 pm    Post subject: on the F class business Visa Reply with quote

It would be grand if we could all get that coveted Z class working Visa now wouldn't it! Only problem is, they are as rare as...well, a Z class working Visa.

The numbers on this don't exist anywhere, but simply by asking around, a person will discover [living in South China anyway] the majority of foreign expats are living/working on the Honkers 6 month F class business Visa. What is the purpose of said Visa?

If I understand it correctly, it is created for business people who get called over by a company to do "consulting". Now this is a very magic word, because some say that actually getting paid to work while using the F Visa is illegal, yet a consultant is paid by the company that brings said person over, so they are paid.

Also, the company that gets the consultant the Visa must be a govt. sanctioned company. So how is it that there are so many companies set up in Kowloon tossing these Visas out to so many expats so easily? They don't even require any paperwork. What does go on behind those closed doors where your passport gets hustled away with about 50 others, that then join another 300 or so routed to the Chinese Embassy, DAY after friggin' DAY???

I can tell you what happens. The Visa is put through the system; forms are filled out. The passport numbers are recorded on lists of "sponsoring govt. sanctioned companies". These lists, along with the Passports and govt. collection fees are then fed to the Embassies. All that is done at that point is:
The numbers are logged
Visas attached
shipped out to Visa companies again

End of story...

It's not illegal because they follow the rules and procedures. The companies that are sanctioned get a small piece of the Visa pie simply by allowing total strangers to use them as "sponsors".

It's been going on a rather long time and will continue to do so because, even though there are hoops to jump through, they are all legal loops.

So, I have on my personal business card "consultant" with contact information and little else.

This works for me, as it easily has for HUNDREDS, actually a few THOUSAND foreigners living in southern China. The only unfortunate things IS...someone in Beijing or Shanghai has to spend a pocket load twice a year to come do this very thing.

Times are a changin'! The "foreign expert" booklet is being phased out, mainly because it is just more bugaboo red tape to deal with. Within probably two years, getting the working Visa will be little more than applying at any local travel agency in the mainland. The doors have opened, there's no holding back, and the almighty greenback is creating a new cash river that is flowing UPSTREAM into mainland China

*You can contact "Michael's Consulting Agency" 24/7 via Email at your convenience! Wink
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Edward,
make your little windfall by offering total newbies your sort of advice... but he or she must be a naive person who believes you!
You are right in that lots of expats are illegal. Why is this? It has more to do with Chinese being ignorant of how to hire an expat. Most Chinese believe we outsiders have an unfair privilege - to own a passport, which they erroneously equate as the right to work somewhere else than their home country. My colleagues still can't believe that my passport as such is NOT good enough for me to work here.
The issuance of business visas is lax, no doubt. It is business for the Shenzhen PSB, that's all (your passport gets chopped in Shenzhen, not in Hong Kong!). How long can this go on? those permanent residewnts in Zhongnanhai can tell...
On the other hand, businesspeople usually need a registered business. I imagine one day they will simply ask visa applicants to show proof of transactions done in CHina. By the way, according to taxation regulations business visitors to China must pay tax on business deals done during their stay here provided they spend 183 days a calendar year on PRC soil!
The rules are there. It merely is a question of enforcement of the rules. In other words, come time come the harsh reality!
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Write, i think you are pretty much right, don't know if people realize it. The reason China has never cracked down is because they don't know how to. That is why they are hiring massive amounts of foreign accountants and expertise. You can even see it here in somewhat backwater henan. Bit by bit cities are joining the modern world, and this means cracking down on us. This notion of guanxi allowing private schools to act illegally is highly exxagerated. It is just that most Chinese agencies are still very innefficient
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bluey



Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank y'all for comments! I'm flying tomorrrow & will post any astonishing findings as & when. I'm especially glad to hear the salary's reasonable (only 18-20 contact hours for 7K HK), but if anyone has more specifics on the regional cost of living in Dongguan, I'm still all ears. I've had conflicting advice, see: "You'll be struggling to make ends meet and won't save anything" vs "You'll have trouble spending more than 4000HK a month".

Also any tips on must-see's & must-avoid's gratefully read, to compliment fairly poor Lonely Planet coverage.
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your employer should offer you free housing with a kitchen. Otherwise, 4000 RMB (or HKD) won't last more than the 4 weeks for which they are being paid.

Sights: There is not much in Dongguan. Outside visit HUMEN on the eastern bank of the Pearl River, with its Li Zenxu museum. While the museum is pretty patriotic, it is quite instructive with its mock ships and opium cases and cannons from the Anglo-Chinese war in the Brogue (Humen).

Farther afield, Guangzhou, Panyu, SHunde, Foshan, and Shenzhen have more to offer.
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