Job Discussion Forums

[manonatrain]

quote- I'll be more than happy to take you up on that wager. PM me and we can discuss the details.
John

PS. John

Do you mean you would like to beat me up or kill me
because I am suspicious of one Kooky poster called Vieled Sediments?


Sincerely
manonatrain MUSCAT, OMAN

[johnslat]

Dear manonatrain,
Good heavens, no. You could kill yourself. And you're quite right that it's not hard to get into trouble with the " law " in the Gulf. Traffic violations ( if you have an accident with a national - who, of course, is almost never to blame ), drinking episodes, foolishly " mouthing off " to matawas or saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong person. Of course, this is Saudi Arabia I'm writing about; I simply don't have any experience in the other Gulf States. But I'm still dead certain you're wrong in your suspicions regarding veiled sentiments. And, personally, I'd never make an accusation such as you did, based only on " suspicion ", on a public forum such as this. I'm probably dating myself ( hmm, that's about all one COULD do in the Kingdom ) but defaming a lady on the basis of nothing more than disagreement and an unproven mistrust seems to me to be a very ungentlemanly thing to do. But your continued existence is not in any jeopardy - neither of us can verify our opinions. I'll simply continue to read her posts since I consider them to be most worthwhile and informative, while you can ignore or disregard them.
Regards,
John
P.S. All the people I know who did get into trouble with the " law " in Saudi Arabia really had only themselves to blame. They knew the " rules ", unfair and irrational as those often are, and chose to " cross the line ". This is NOT to say that completely innocent people haven't run afoul of the authorities - just that I never knew of such an instance in all my time there. Moreover, such miscarriages of " justice " are not unknown even in the West.

[Cleopatra]

Well said once more, John!

I agree with you that manonatrain's defamation of VS is silly and infantile in the extreme. I also agree that most "Westerners" who run afoul of the law in KSA have indeed broken those laws. As you said, we are all well informed of what is and is not permissable in the Kingdom when we arrive, and if we chose to break the law well then... Of course, everybody here, SAudi or foreign, does break the law on a regular basis, but most have the sense to do so behind closed doors. That's the way this socieity works - you can do almost anything so long as youkeep quiet about it!

Of course, there are many many people in prison here who have done absolutely nothing. However, contrary to what some whingng "Westerners" try to make out, the vast majority of these unfortunates are Third World nationals. Not everybody is equal in the eyes of the law, here or anywhere else.

[Albulbul]

An "Arabist" is simply someone who has taken the trouble to learn Arabic and has studied the culture. Of course sometimes that means that they have "gone over" or "turned Turk". But not always. I pride myself on my ability to communicate in Arabic but I would not say that I have become more Arab than the Arabs.

Heaven forfend !

[biffinbridge]

Assault,criminal damage and drunk and disorderly.Got out cos a friend had serious wasta.

[dmb]

Albulbul: 'turned turk' Most turks would hate to be associated with arabs

[veiledsentiments]

As much as I hate to get my dear friend manonatrain started on another of his rants, I feel that in situations like this, both sides should get to give their side of the story.

I sent a copy of this article to an Omani woman friend, who I know has relatives in the ROP (Royal Omani Police). Their version of the story is that this woman was recruited in Australia by the Ministry of Higher Education to teach for them. They say that she was informed at the interview that she would be employed at the Rustaq branch and accepted the position under those circumstances. There was at no time any 'new college in the UAE' as the Emirates Ministry hires its own people. Once the woman arrived and saw Rustaq, she refused to work there. Although she continued to collect her salary, she did not teach her classes and spent her time traveling to Muscat to fight her cause. The Ministry says that they requested that she either teach her courses or resign, but she refused to resign or leave the country. Then she got a lawyer and started attempting to sue the Ministry. At that point, the Ministry notified the police to deport her.

I would expect that the "truth" of this situation lies somewhere in the middle of the two versions. Based on what I have read on the job information journal, at this time Rustaq College was a complete mess with plenty of blame to go around to Ministry management and some rather 'eccentric' teachers. If I had been there, I'd have probably been trying to get a transfer somewhere else, but I also have taught in the Middle East long enough to know that in any expat vs government disagreement --- rare is the time that the expat wins.

Rather than making a futile effort at this point to know what did or did not happen, this board is best used to tell other teachers how to avoid getting oneself into situations like this. As I said in my first message, make sure you know who is hiring you and what job you are being hired for. Get it in writing!! Have an escape plan. You are in a foreign country and their rules are not the same as ours. The jails are unairconditioned cesspools for the most part. You don't want to go there, so don't get nasty and make threats that you can't back up. Always have a return ticket home or the money to buy one if you need it.

I guess I was fortunate. Only once in the Middle East did I end up with a job that was a nightmare. But, I taught my classes and kept my head down. An academic year isn't that long. Then, smile sweetly, get your annual ticket and get out. (It was such a pleasure to fax that resignation from the US.) If the situation is completely intolerable, try to keep your mouth shut and at the first holiday, quietly use your own money and get out. Use your common sense.

Remember, no country is innocent of illegal detainments of foreigners. Just ask the men in Guantanamo --- Just ask the man who got to learn about broomsticks with a few policemen in that NYC jail ---

VS

[Albulbul]

"To turn Turk" was the expression in Shakespearean English for becoming a Muslim. But then I should not expect English teachers to know that.

[manonatrain]

well of course VS has just GOT to tell you how the
western teacher is lying!

Amnesty International got involved in a legitimate claim.
It is common practice for the ROP to defend the Omani even
under the worse situation...murder included.

I am not ranting. Just stating facts. That I am indeed correct about
your MO.

In no way do I believe what your OMANI friend told you. I have more
than my share of powerful friends as high as you can get them and I know
that they LIE about things connected with police matters when it involved expats and how nice and great OMAN is. It is wierd and it freaks me out.

I hate this part of being in the Middle East...but I also understand it in a strange way. I do not understand the MINISTRY OF EDUCATION turning blind eyes to the hundreds of complaints they get about abusive situaltions.

Why not support the TEACHER Vieled Setiment ? Are you not a teacher too ? Why are you ALWAYS refering to CUBA ? and I mean ALWAYS.
I think you are a kooky girl....
and dangerous for expats who need real help with real problems.

I am just glad you don�t work at my University!!!!! HUMDAAALLLLAAA

[biffinbridge]

When i was incarcerated i was the only westerner in there that's for sure.Most of the others were Pakis,Indians and Flips.Most were in there for debt having not been paid by their employers,(Qataris).A professional guy from Singapore was in there for holding 2 passports on arrival in Doha,(dual nationality),he had been in the hole for 3 months.If you have a car crash with a national,especially a ninja,you'll be guilty even if they were driving on 2 wheels around a roundabout at the time.There is no law in these countries it's just wasta.I'd add that I did indeed break the law but he'll never poke his nose into anyone's marital probs again.Incidentally, the other inmates treated me well and went out of their way to give me cigarettes,shoes and the like even though we'd just gone into Iraq.Their humanity made the experience rather memorable.

[shmooj]

After reading through all your colourful responses a thought occurred to me:

Can I ask why there seems to be an expectation that these people, who are after all tribal and have their own value systems, adhere to western ideals of law and order?

They seem to be doing fine by their own standards don't they?

I think the point might be to not expect anything more of them and that we run into trouble when we do.

Or am I simply naive...

[biffinbridge]

Oh, they are very good at applying the law,it's just that, contrary to Islam all ,people are not equally treated by it.If a national raped a foreigner, for example his Phillipina maid ,chances are she'd be deported if she complained.If a foreigner raped a national he'd go down..that's if the family didn't find him first. Tribal affiliations and customs do exist yeah,sure,.... but why have the pretence of a legal system?Shariah law is derived from the Koran ,which is very clear about certain crimes.Its laws are just not equally applied.

[veiledsentiments]

Shmooj,

I think that you may very well have pointed to a couple of the problems - our expectations and their inability to enforce their new 'laws' which may not 'agree' with their tribal or cultural ties. It reminded me of some stories that I have often told people as examples of how different legal systems can be.

When I was first in Oman in the 80's I encountered a couple of situations. The banks had brought in checking accounts. A totally new concept in what had always been a cash culture. I arrived and opened an account having been used to living in the US with no cash and paying everything by check. It didn't take long to learn that none of the shops accepted checks. When I asked why, it seemed that there was no law for a vendor to go after someone who wrote a bad check. They were just out the money. It seemed that too many people were under the impression that these checking account created cash and had no grasp of the idea that one had to actually keep track of how much money one had in there. This will land you in jail in the US. It took them a few years to put a system of controlling this new idea, but in the meantime the idea of a checking account has pretty much died.

I was living on the university compound and we had a teacher who was into dogs. Heaven knows the Middle East is full of homeless animals and it is usually the expats who take care of them. This fellow would be out in the desert gathering up litters of puppies to add to his collection. Soon the whole street was full of packs of jebel dogs and his neighbors were being driven crazy by 24 hours of barking and howling. The police would come in and shoot up the packs on the street, but they were unable to do anything about the houseful. I was one of those that went to the police office on campus to ask that something be done. Their response was a mournful 'Well, we sent him a letter, and he ignored it.' In a tribal society that would have worked. If the authority figure sent you a message, you do what is said. But, this westerner just ignored them. I said that they should tell him that he has x number of day to get the dogs out and if not, evict him. The officer says, 'oh no, we couldn't do that.' I replied why not -- it is their housing and he is a university employee, not their boss. But, nothing was ever done. They just kept sending him letters asking him to please get rid of the dogs.

Unlike some of the other Middle Easterners, Omanis tend to be quite non-confrontational. It was highly unusual for someone to be 'fired' unless you did something totally outrageous. They would usually request that someone resign or just wait until their contract ended and not renew. That is how they eventually rid themselves of the dog problem.

A more equal application of law may someday come to this part of the world. This is where organizations like Amnesty International are so important. I think most of these countries do care about their reputations. That is why I sent off this message to my friend. I knew that she would send it to the ROP and she also used to work at the Ministry. I wanted them to know that this situation was important and that we in the education field are watching them. But, realistically, I expect that it will be a slow process. In the meantime the best advice is to try to avoid having to get involved with the law over there.

VS

[johnslat]

Lord, it's come to this - I'm admitting that the biffer has a valid point. It's true ( in the Kingdom, anyway ) that the " laws " are often enforced with considerable inequality. WASTA is king - if you know the right people, you can get away with just about anything. Then, there's the " pecking order ", which, I believe scot47 has mentioned before: nationals at the top, USAers ( usually ) next, then Western Europeans, etc, down to the lowliest Bangladeshi. Needless to say, the lower you are on that order, the ( much ) more likely you are to either suffer the consequences of your actions or even to be a " fall guy ". I guess we were all " tribal " at some point in the past. And tribal " enforcement " and value systems likely worked very well - in their time. But not any more - even the Gulf has to life with the rest of the world now. And, as I see it, this is all part of their " transition " from a life as it used to be lived ( but no longer can be ) to one more " in tune " with the present. It's a tough, wrenching process for many/most of them - letting go of the old and grasping the new - Mega-Future Shock - and it's not going to happen overnight. But I'd say it HAS begun to happen, and, considering just how hard it is, I think they're not doing too bad a job of it.
Regards,
John

[Stephen Jones]

I have to say that I have had three traffoc accidents with Saudis, one with serious damage to both cars, and two with minor scratches, and in no case did the Saudi police take the side of their national. In the first case blame was apportioned equally 9which was quite fair as if either of us had been looking where we were going, we wouldn't have driven into each other), and in the second two the Saudis were told to go packing and I was asked if I wanted to pursue a claim agains them.

On another occasion I witnessed an Indian pull out without looking directly into the path of a Saudi vehicle approaching well within the speed limit. It was only after I intervened with the traffic policeman that he desisted from making the innocent Saudi 100% responsible.

So the oft repeated statement that when you have an accident with a Saudi national you are always wrong does not square witn my experience.

With regard to jails in the Gulf, it appears that its rather a lottery. I had a friend who was in jail in Fujairah for writing a car off when drunk (he avodied beng lashed by claiming to be a Christian, which puzzled the judeg who thought all Mahmoud's were Moslem's) and he reckoned conditions there were pretty good. While he was there he witnessed the escape of an Emirati colleague of his who was in for double murder (the second murder was when he escaped from the jail he was being held for the first murder, grabbed a taxi, and killed the taxi driver when the idiot tried to report him to the place for not paying the fare!). Three weeks later his Emirati colleague was back in the same jail after being spirited away to London, probably with the help of his father who was a high up in the Emirati Diplomatic Service. When my frien asked the convicted murderer how he had got caught he said, "Came back; prefer it here. Was in London, but nobody there talks to you."