Job Discussion Forums

[twoteachers]

Hi, Newbie here.

My wife and I are just starting the job hunt from abroad. We're still up in the air over whether to choose Japan or Korea, so we've decided to apply in both places and see what kind of offers we get back.

We're applying to smaller schools before we start with NOVA et al, which is our backup plan.

So does anyone have any idea how much competition is out there specifically? For example, for a typical job in O-Hayo Sensei or jobsinjapan.com that sponsors visas for teachers abroad, how many applicants do you figure they receive? What percentage of those applicants are already in Japan (on average)? Sometimes I get the feeling from this board that there are thousands of jobless EFL teachers roaming the streets of Tokyo and there's no chance for those of us who are abroad except through the big chains. (Of course I am assuming that we have competitive qualifications compared to people already in Japan).

How many of the applicants a company receives are going to survive the first pass of their resume/CV?

Finally, how long does it usually take for a smaller school in Japan to respond to applications compared to a Korean Hagwon? (I'm not talking about the visa process--I understand that's longer).

Okay, one more question since its our first post: We are applying as a couple (we're married) and would like to get set up in the same school and apartment. (Sounds crazy, I know, but we're newlyweds). Is it realistic to expect to live on one salary and save the other? We are frugal, but not total cheapskates. Pubs and eating out a couple/few times a week (cheaper places), but not nightclubs and tons of travelling around the country type of lifestyle.

If anyone wants to check out our resume/qualifcations, we have a webpage, and welcome any (constructive) criticism of it. Let me know if the resumes are formatted okay over there--I don't trust the Word conversion to html.

www.home.earthlink.net/~njfarney

Of course, if you have any job leads for us in the Tokyo area or another happening place, let us know!

Thanks,
Nathan and Jen

[Gordon]

For Korea, you'll get a job in minutes, not days. They want anyone with a pulse, but the first job is not always the best.

You should be able to save one person's salary in Japan and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to work in the same school. It will take longer because your choices for jobs are more limited.

You're going to need to be patient because the best schools will take longer to hire you. The desperate ones will want you over on the next plane.

Have fun and don't get discouraged.

[twoteachers]

Hey Gordon, thanks for the advice. I've read some of your other posts about couples working, which have helped us figure things out a little bit more.

I think our biggest advantage is that we can afford to be patient since we are both working in the States and aren't desperate. Our disadvantage is our inexperience in that we don't know how many "prime" jobs are out there, and when its best to take a "decent" job offer instead.

I was considering whether to apply for westgate to get a visa, work for 3 months, and spend that time in Japan looking for something better, but then thats a risk too, considering the housing prices. Plus we can't figure out if they take couples.

Thanks
Nathan

[Celeste]

My husband and I are able to save one salary entirely and live on the other. It is actually quite easy. (Actually we are able to save more than one salary, but that is because we are on the JET programme and are only paying 10 000yen per month in rent. However, with two modest eikaiwa jobs and a minimum amount of tutoring, you should be able to save 200 000 to 250 000 per month.)

One of the things that helps to save money is to keep a few of our evenings booked with tutoring gigs, and a few evenings booked with the gym. These pursuits are much cheaper than traditional forms of entertainment. (I know that sounds cheap, but I find that I spend the most money when I have too much free time- Shopping for entertainment is a dangerous pursuit here!)

I think that you will have a slight advantage as long as your wife is willing to teach children. The only area where there really seems to be a shortage of teachers in Japan is foreign women willing to teach small children. (It is discriminatory, but I have talked to more than a few mothers who say they would be more comfortable with a woman teaching their kids.)

[Glenski]

I just heard from one of the members online here (I'll keep the name private unless he/she wants to say more) about applications for a position at his small school. This is what he said.

[twoteachers]

Glenski,

Thanks for the insight--you seem to be everywhere on the Japan boards! We hadn't thought of the problems with taking vacation at the same time if we work at the same school, so that is a good thing to keep in mind. I'm thinking the only way we'll find out the answers to alot of our questions is by actually going through the process. My wife is setting up a blog about the process, so when there is more meat to it maybe I'll post a link here.

We thought the same thing about our pictures--but they were the best we had when we were building our resumes and we had no film in our camera, so we decided to get busy applying and we'll switch out the pictures when we get our next roll developed.

Thanks for taking a look.

[Glenski]

What is a blog?

[twoteachers]

Blog is short for "Web Log" and it is basically an online diary. Its the latest cool thing for internet junkies--actually, from all the posts I see by you, you could probably do a pretty informative one. They are pretty cool because anyone can basically have their own website for free. (I think the bigger ones you have to pay for extra space). I don't know too much about them, but I've been to a few.

The major provider is www.blogspot.com -- If you go there and sign up, you can have your own address and put whatever you want on it.

Here is one that was pretty informative about apartment hunting in tokyo:

http://www.greggman.com/japan/apts/tokyo%20apts.htm

Some famous people and authors have them:

www.williamgibsonbooks.com
www.neilgaiman.com (Go to the Journal).

You can also search for whatever random one you want from the blogger website, I think.

Here is one that was pretty cool about teaching in Korea:

http://korealife.blogspot.com/teach/

[ryuro]

Nathan and Jen,

Don't want to reiterate too much of what's been said here- I agree with all of it and Glenski is probably the singular most informative/helpful poster on this board (not trying to slight others out there) so you'd be wise to heed whatever he says.

However, thought I could offer a little first hand experience from both sides; 1)being married to another teacher and working for the same company and 2)being a recruiter.

It is certainly possible to work for the same company, but in all likelihood you will not be in the same school (unless it's a small outfit) and I'll explain why a little later. However, first you should also consider whether you'd really want to work in the same school with your partner. Don't get me wrong, I love my wife to death and we have a fantastic relationship, but honestly we don't want to spend that much time together- I'm sorry but I just don't think that's healthy. If you just want to work for the same company, then your chances of that and for getting hired at the same time, having the same holidays, etc. increase dramatically if you choose to work in a larger city and for one of the big eikaiwas (for obvious reasons). Also, housing and transport will be lesser issues in these markets.

Keep in mind most companies offer housing for each teacher they sponsor. In many cases they've shelled out a heep of money sometime ago to secure these apartments. Just because you might think it's easier/cheaper for your employer to put you both in one apartment doesn't mean it's true. You'll find western logic and rarely applies here. Most companies will be very loathe to simply give up an apartment in which they're already heavily invested. What this means for couples is generally they're stuck with two apartments. When I lived in Tokyo I new many couples who worked for the big eikaiwas in this situation. The only way around it is to find your own place, which is a WHOLE other discussion.

Right now the ecomony is still in the doldrums, but that being said, I think you two would be competative and if you're BOTH willing to teach children you'll have no problems finding employment. It is true, however, that companies are far more keen on hiring female teachers to teach children. Be aware that teaching English to children will be THE MARKET for sometime to come (until if/when the ecomony gets better).

You'll just have to decide if this is all acceptable to you.

Now the flip-side; why AS A COUPLE you might find it difficult to get hired.

I've been in Japan for seven years and hiring/training for most of that. I would say nearly every Japanese school (smaller eikaiwas, colleges, public schools) that I've dealt with have had a fairly strict NO COUPLES policy. Why? Well... that's a tough one. Without getting too much into a Japanese culture analysis, they simply have an aversion to it.

To them it sends up all kinds of "red flags" and has "difficult" written all over it. The Japanese have very seperate work and home lives and generally believe they should NEVER intersect (accept on rare-formalized occasions). A husband and wife working together violates this tenant and makes Japanese employers a bit uncomfortable- they just don't like to mix the two. A lesson I learned quickly when I suggested to my Japanese co-worker that we should invite our wives to go out for a few drinks with us after work. His expression was one of someone who'd just been asked if they'd mind terribly donating their liver even though they were still alive. Simply inconceivable. Even when you get invited to a wedding of a co-worker, the spouse IS NOT invited. They are not part of that group.

I and others could go on an on about this, but the point is; they have deep seated cultural biases against couples working together. Once you're married, the wife quits works and should start having babies. I;m sorry, I know it sound ridiclously sexist, but that's just what I've encountered even now. Don't be fooled by the occassional western thinking Japanese boss, this idea is still firmly rooted in society here. You just have to pick up the newspaper and read the latest, sexist gaff by a politician to realize it.

Then there's some of the practical issues my Japanese bosses always raise; family emergencies, problems at home, etc. If they hire a couple, a problem with one autmotically (in their minds) translates into a problem with the other. Makes them nervous.

So my advice; try the bigger schools, bigger cities first or apply individually at different schools, but keep in mind the market. The smaller the market the harder to find employment for two in the same area (again, unless you're with a big outfit). Be prepared for a lot of personal questions about your yourselves and your relaltionship. It's perfectly acceptable in the Japanese bosses mind to ask things like "when will you be having children?", "why does you're wife want to work?", "how is your family?", "how is your health", etc.

Sorry this went on so long, but I hope you find it somewhat uselful. Again, I think you guys would be excellent candidates so I wish you both luck.

Cheers,
ryuro

ps. if you want to know the details of how my wife an I pulled-off our current gigg, drop me a note to my private messages on this board.

[twoteachers]

Hey Ryuro,

Thanks for the info--I hear what your saying about working together AND living together, and I guess our motivation for it is that we spend so much time apart right now with commuting and working, etc, that we don't want to end up teaching opposite shifts and commuting in opposite directions, since part of our motivation for teaching overseas is to share more of our lives, so to speak. In the end, I think we'd probably be happy if our schools were at least close together (or on the same line) so we could commute together and keep similar schedules. Not sure how realistic this is, though, which I think is why we were trying to apply as a couple, at least at first.

Thanks for the insight into Japanese cultural views of working couples--that will be good information for preparing for an interview, probably, when the time comes. (If we do find a "couples" school).

I guess part of my own fear as a new husband, too, is of Jen going off alone through the subways of Tokyo and getting lost or something happening while I am oblivious somewhere else in the city. I know Japan is supposed to be safe, and it is probably irrational (before anyone goes off on me, I'm not super overprotective or whatever, Jen can take care of herself and I understand that its probably irrational). Any words to the wise on that issue? She'll probably read this post soon and let me know anyway.

Thanks again!
Nathan

[azarashi sushi]

Hi Nathan and Jen,

Ditto everything everyone else has said ... They've given you very good advice...

If you both hope to find jobs in Tokyo, you're really going to have to be a bit more flexible ... Unless you have lots and lots of spare cash up your sleeve.

[Glenski]

[Gordon]

Good advice so far, can't deny anything that's been said so far.
My wife and I worked together at the same school when we were in Korea. I thought it worked well, our lives didn't seem to revolve around the job, despite working 6 days/week. Work in Korea does not have the same pressures as Japan, but I am glad that we could work together and were a real team at our small school. We made up half the foreign teacher staff which gave us a little more clout than the others. I think my wife was also treated better in general because they were a little afraid of me.