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[kev7161]

This year, I've followed my former 1st graders into 2nd grade and a new teacher has come along to take this year's 1st grade class. 3 of my students left so I have 22 now and the 1st grade class has 25. Thankfully, I'm in a nice, big classroom this year and that makes me really happy. Now, as I post the following, don't misunderstand. My 2nd graders are no little angels. They still drift off during lessons, talk, play with their pencils and erasers, resist the whole "speaking English" stuff, etc.

However, on Fridays, the other teacher and I switch classes for two periods. Granted, it's only the first week, but I can't believe the difference in behaviors, abilities, etc. I'm trying to remember if my kids were like this in September of last year, but I'm thinking they weren't quite so bad. I had two boys smearing their liquid glue all over their desks after we had finished our art project. I had the class draw pictures of themselves - - two boys drew Ultraman instead. I had kids out of their seats, chattering on almost constantly . . . and on and on. Those that teach or have taught small kids know the story I'd imagine.

At the end, when I passed out stickers, four boys didn't get one - - one boy put his head down and cried. Good! Hopefully he'll remember next time and want to earn a sticker. (By the way, there were some wonderful kids in the mix as well!)

Last year, I went into a Chinese teacher's English class to observe her technique, maybe gain a few insights. HER class was similar to this one. She just taught above the chaos, never once pausing to address the problems of undisciplined students.

Back to my class - - we are a relative oasis of calm these days for which I'm grateful. I'm hoping for smooth sailing this year.

[Lobster]

Good work Kev! It's great to see your effect on your students and to know that all that hard work can pay off. Not many teachers get a chance to teach the same class during the following year and actually see progress. I hope that the rest of the term goes as smoothly as this first week. Don't forget to tell that new teacher about your experience so that there's no despair. Full steam ahead!

RED

[vikdk]

[Lobster]

Don't you think sameness would be rewarding the naughty students in the same way as the well-behaved ones? Part of a teacher's job is to re-inforce good behaviour, and to correct misbehaviour, in this case not through punishment but by withholding a reward. It's not like Kev gave him a headbutt or anything. It's not a matter of kids being well-equipped for learning, it's more a matter of being a bit disciplined and attentive. I don't think it reflects poorly on Kev's training or methods. We'd have to know a lot more about the boy's conduct in the class before making this kind of judgement call don't you think?

RED

[kev7161]

I had a completely different response, but it was kind of knee-jerk, so I decided to change it:

vikdk, what it seems to me that you are saying is that we should embrace individuality (which I agree with 100%) and let the kids do what they will, disruptive to class activities or not? If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.

If I assigned students to do some role-playing - - you're the mother, you're the father, you're the child. . . okay, go! - - then I would expect and welcome individuality and creativity.

If we were fingerpainting and I tasked the kids to paint whatever they'd like, I'd also welcome individuality.

If we were having an open book test, I'd fully want my students to use their text and notes to gain the best scores they possibly could.

If I told a student to draw a picture of himself and he drew Ultraman and was able to say, "This is ME as Ultraman.", then I could even accept that. By the way, both of those boys WERE able to say "This is Ultraman."

Yes, these are kids we're talking about, not college students. But how many posts have we all read here time and again about lazy college students, students that woudn't come to class, students that cheat on tests and other assignments, etc.? They're endless! Now I'm not saying that these child-like behaviors from young adults stem from the fact that they did or did not receive stickers due to being stifled back in first grade, but you as a professional should know that is where the behavior patterns start (5 to 6 years old).

Sure, I could smile and say, "Good job everyone! Here's your sticker!" but then I'd imagine the next 10 months will be sheer hell on me and the other kids that are really and truly trying to be good, creative, imaginative, well-behaved students.

So, say what you will and I'll still act in my very unprofessional way and reward kids that deserve and earn it. The others can have their fun and be their little individual selves, but I'm not going to acknowledge it with false rewards.

PS: Lobster - - thanks a lot for your always encouraging remarks, by the way. One doesn't have to agree with everything I post, but there is a proper way on how to disagree. I don't feel vikdk's is always the best.

[vikdk]

What's wrong Kev - just take my post as a reflection of the teaching style you apparently employ - reward or punishment. You know pavlov's dogs - pre-seventies western teaching method - standard Chinese teaching method (hence all those so-called lazy - I'd call them demotivated - older Chinese student).
So if you write a good a post I'll give you a star - otherwise I'll have to make an example of you - you know not even bother to explain to you why real learning and development is something we, as teachers, should link to stimulating the student with genuine mind-expanding pleasurable experience (even though in reality the pain of learning and developing is always with us) - and try to avoid building it upon the promise of some worthless glittery prize. Now how does that feel - no gold star - are you crying - wowwww you couldn't care less - you've become demotivated move up guys, another blank eyed student to fill a seat.

[kev7161]

[vikdk]

ahhhh - the old cover my tracks by finding typos tradition - you always know you have a poster on the run when their only line of debate is centered on your English
don't worry just edited the typos - so why don't you have another go

[no_exit]

Ever seen the movie Little Red Flowers (看上去很美 is the Chinese name)? This post reminds me of that movie. A kid goes to an awful little kindergarten and the teachers stick little red flowers beside the names of the students who do well (don't wet the bed, are able to dress themselves, etc.). Well this one rather independent minded student (the writer of the story, which is a true one) never gets any little red flowers, ever, and he becomes rather intent on getting one. The movie takes place during the cultural revolution, and while the kindergarten looked like a pretty awful place to me (not just because of the flowers, the whole thing), and was portrayed as an absolutely dismal place in the movie (the writer felt that as a free spirited kid, this kind of environment was stifling) my boyfriend assured me that at the time it would have been one of the better kindys around.

Stars/flowers/grades/whatever ... Chinese kids are very accustomed to this method, as it seems to be common in every school. I went to Montessori school when I was a kid, where we weren't given grades, much less stars, so I tend not to do the reward/punishment thing either, BUT I'm not going to say anything about kev as a teacher just because he does things differently from me. We all do what works for us, and if kev has had success with his methods, and they fit in with what is being done at the school where he's teaching, then calling his teaching "disgusting" is pretty unncessesary.

[vikdk]

[no_exit]

Why not let kev tell us what kind of success he's had with his methods, rather than assuming that he's producing little robots just by handing out stars? I don't think there's any need to be quite so quick to judge other teachers, vik, and even if you feel the need to do so, there are ways to ask questions, or even disagree with your fellow teachers without being being so blatantly insulting.

[7969]

[kev7161]

Well, since I started this thread . . .

Actually, I don't think I've EVER claimed to be a great teacher or the best teacher. Heck, some days I'm not even a good teacher, but most days I am, I feel (a good teacher, that is).

My success? I don't know how to answer that. I do know that the English-based work my kids get are generally more challenging than many of their peers in other Chinese-based classes and easily 80% or more pass with flying colors and most of the other 20% (last term) were at least averaging Cs and Bs in their subjects. There was one little girl who just couldn't keep up with the others and, ogre teacher that I am, I suggested to her parents she should be placed in a class where she could accomplish more at her ability level.

But it's not about MY success, rather the success of the students and there are times they are quite happy, sometimes bored, and sometimes frustrated with the challenges. I bend and am flexible and am not so full of myself that I don't change and try a variety of teaching strategies.

This is not about stickers, by the way, no matter what vikdk is trying to impress on us. And it's also not about surpressing creativity and individualism. It's about making sure that ALL students get a chance to achieve and, if there are a couple who are going to disrupt just for the sake of disruption, well . . . I've made my case above.

So, again vikdk, your teaching methods surely differ from mine and that's just swell. My 2nd graders are getting a well-rounded education. This makes me happy, this makes the school happy, and this makes the parents happy. I hope the kids will have a happy and successful future. But, this IS China, so it may all fall apart once they leave this special program after 6th grade.

[vikdk]

[Lobster]

Here's my take on this in detail. First, I should clarify that I believe there are as many effective teaching methods as there are effective teachers, and unless one can quantify results and compare them to other other teachers', one has little right to criticize their methods.

There are life lessons everyone has to learn - work hard, do a good job and help out and you are rewarded. Slack off, be disruptive and counter-productive, and you're going to suffer. Pulling your weight has nothing to do with stifling of individualism, unless you consider teamwork of any kind stifling.

You see Vikdk, life is a series of compromises and acts of repressing your own desires in order to benefit those around you. Now, I don't know what educational theory you follow, but most teachers consider education as preparation for life in society. Individualism is ok in he proper proportion, but the western emphasis on individualism for its own sake creates some pretty tragi-comedic characters. The jails are full of people who place their own individualism above consideration for others.

It takes some fairly serious authority issues to interpret rewards for good behaviour as oppressive. Am I correct in thinking that in your classes Vikdk, there are no prizes, no rewards, and no praise for a job well done or good behaviour? To me that sounds more stalinist than the meritocracy that Kev's trying to develop in his classes. Just go ahead and sleep in class and you'll get the same results as the hard workers; we're all equal after all.

I can admire your CMM-like idealism for the mind-expanding education experience, but Kev's pragmatism is, in my mind, a more accurate reflection of the real world, which hasn't changed much since the 70's and probably won't change for many generations to come. Unless you're some fortunate son, you'll be working for monetary reward, peer recognition and praise from significant people for most of your life. We're still a little way off from utopia, especially in a competitive place like China where it's still a carrot and stick life.

Children need and want to know limits and guidelines. They're not "little adults". It's part of a teacher's job to help kids learn those limits. Rewards are part of a system that shows people that they're doing the right thing and have their place in a stimulating education environment.

It's such a strange thing. I'm an easy-going crustacean by nature, but in the classroom I'm stricter and more reward/punishment-oriented than any other teacher in the school. My students also get the highest marks and I get the best evaluation results. My students see my strictness as a true indication of my concern for their education and development. If I didn't care, I'd just let them do what they wanted to. Therefore, personally, I prefer Kev's savoir-faire to vikdk's laissez-faire. He has seen the fruits of his approach in his own second-year class, and if it works for him he's doing something right.

RED