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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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 Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| king kakipi wrote: |
What is the point of making English compulsory in schools then?! |
Because it's a necessary part of the entrance exam. Written grammar that is.
| king kakipi wrote: |
| It is the biggest language outside of Japanese in Japan. |
Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean???
| king kakipi wrote: |
| There are thousands of eikaiwa and billions of yen being spent on 'Business English' classes and teaching it in by schools. |
'Business English' is just a marketing ploy and is the linguistic equivalent of the Emperors new clothes. Where is this business supposed to take place? Australia? India? New York? Scotland? What are people doing in this business? Selling Apples? Building a windmill? Redconstructing Iraq?
| Takahashi-1991 wrote: |
| Native speakers of English intentionally try to push non-native speakers out of discussions by making full use of tactics that stem from phonetic, idiomatic, syntactic, and pragmatic characteristics unique only in English. For example, they step up the speed of speech, use a large number of jargons and idioms, or make utterances that are grammatically complex. |
Native speakers are just as obliged to learn effective communication strategies when dealing with foreign businesses. Such classes could take into account the �Ideal Speech Situation� as set out in Habbermas (1970):
1. All potential participants in discourse must have the same chance to initiate discourses and to perpetuate them through asking and answering questions, making and replying to objections giving arguments and justifications, etc
2. All participants in interaction must have the same chance to express their feelings, intentions, attitude, etc.
3. All participants in interaction must have the same chance to give orders, to permit, to forbid, to give and to receive promises, etc; in short, there must be a reciprocity in behaviour and expectations which exclude all privileges in the sense of one-sidedly binding norms.
| king kakipi wrote: |
| Tourists come to Japan from where. Korea? (they will speak in either Korean or ENGLISH), China? (Mandarin or ENGLISH), Germany (German or English) |
Go to any of those countries and get arrested and chances are that the arresting officers will not speak English.
| king kakipi wrote: |
| I come across SCHOOL students here (in Oz) from France, Germany, Italy, Korea, China, etc who can conduct a basic conversation in English. |
So students visiting Australia have bothered to learn English. That's probably why they're there in the first place. Using the same logic shouldn't adults going to work in Japan learn the language?
And yet you think it's up to the Japanese in Japan to learn English to help the monolingual foreigners that go to work there! Somehow I doubt you would be so generous to foreigners entering Australia and refusing to learn English because the Australian police should speak Cantonese, after all Chinese language is by far the widest spoken language in Asia and in fact the most commonly spoken language on earth. Or perhaps they should learn a native aboriginal dialect of the indiginous population?
Last edited by womblingfree on Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| guest of Japan wrote: |
This could easily be accomplished by accepting naturalized citizens who are interested into public service at no additional cost to taxpayers. But instead, public servants are limited by bloodlines to preserve the Japaneseness of society. If that is the way the Japanese government wishes to operate then is should provide training to Japanese officials to be able to cope with the 2% of the residents of Japan who were not blessed with being raised in Japan. |
Ok slow down. I completely disagree with what the police did in that club, but I also think you are misguided here. First of all, the population of taxpaying foriegners in Japan who were not born here (and most "foriegners" making up the statistics were born here), is WAY LESS than 2%. The total population of foriegners in Japan is something like 1.2%, and the majority of those are resident koreans who were born here and often speak no language other than Japanese. After Koreans come Chinese, Brazilians, Russians, Peruvians, Filipinos, etc etc etc... English speakers are waaaaaaaay down the line somewhere. You want Japan to hire foriegn public servants? If you cut out the people who only speak Japanese, those who can't speak Japanese (and therefore couldn't work in a government office effectively), those who don't have the education required to do the job (many many foriegn residents in Japan have never been to college and are working unskilled jobs), those who are only staying in Japan for a few years and then going back to their country of origin... how many people do you think you're going to have left? And how many of them are going to want to become public servants? I think you're faaaaaaar overestimating both the demand for English and the ability to supply it. YES the police are xenophobic and YES what they did in that club is, IMO, wrong. But what you're saying is totally unreasonable.
And this is coming from a forienger who IS a public servant in Japan. I can tell you without ambivilance that we are pretty rare. |
I am only advocating proportional representation. I am not saying that only bilinguals should be hired. I am not speaking only of English service either. Foreigners who are public servants should not be such a rare commodody. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Also, the arguments I have been making have little to do with the OP because in that instance some people capable of dealing with foreigners were on the scene. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
| Also, the arguments I have been making have little to do with the OP because in that instance some people capable of dealing with foreigners were on the scene. |
The original poster is just naive.
| nickelgoat wrote: |
| The Hiroshima prefectural police once again invaded a bar on Saturday night - for the second time in the past few months. |
How dare they try and look out for the safety of their country and look out for illegal immigrants?  Because you're in the bar, it's an outrage? If it were America, and the new terrorism laws... Do you think the American police come with multitudes of interpreters in multitudes of languages other than English? Should they all speak some Chinese, Japanese so it's not an inconvenience to the foreign patrons in the bar? No...what "buttwipes." |
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ndorfn
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Can't you guys read English?
this is a thread about inappropriate targetting of foreigners and mis-use of police resources.
start a new thread, or your own classes at the local Koban if you're so worried about it. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ndorfn wrote: |
Can't you guys read English?
this is a thread about inappropriate targetting of foreigners and mis-use of police resources. |
If foreigners are being harrassed then it's quite obviously wrong and should be reported.
Going on about how Japanese should learn English doesn't help the debate and just reinforces stereotypes of gaijin coming here to earn money and not giving a toss about adapting to where they are. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ndorfn wrote: |
Can't you guys read English?
this is a thread about inappropriate targetting of foreigners and mis-use of police resources.
start a new thread, or your own classes at the local Koban if you're so worried about it. |
It was a thread in which the OP said the Japanese cops should learn to speak English (or can you not read?):
| Quote: |
| How does a foreigner go about filing complaints on these buttwipes? Japanese police need to learn English and they need to stop acting bullheaded and xenophobic! |
It may not have been the main theme of the thread but one that other posters legitimately responded to. What is your contribution to this thread ndorfn?
Most of the posters here have said that incompetent or heavy-handed policing is a serious problem. Many of them have said that making Japanese police learn English is not a practical way to solve that problem. Threads, as any other form of conversation, evolve. |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Well put. |
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nickelgoat
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Where in the world is nickelgoat?
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:33 am Post subject: |
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.....
Last edited by nickelgoat on Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Kids
Be thankful that the cops here haven`t taken a note out of the Thai cops training manual.
"Ok everyone line up and piss into a jar"
But at least they speak English!!!! |
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king kakipi
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 353
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:31 am Post subject: |
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The Great Uncle Orinico wrote:-
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king kakipi wrote:
What is the point of making English compulsory in schools then?!
Because it's a necessary part of the entrance exam. Written grammar that is. |
So why do schools have AET's who have nothing to do with teaching grammar? The future policemen should listen more carefully in class methinks.
| Quote: |
king kakipi wrote:
It is the biggest language outside of Japanese in Japan.
Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean???
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Er, no, ENGLISH.
| Quote: |
king kakipi wrote:
There are thousands of eikaiwa and billions of yen being spent on 'Business English' classes and teaching it in by schools.
'Business English' is just a marketing ploy and is the linguistic equivalent of the Emperors new clothes. Where is this business supposed to take place? Australia? India? New York? Scotland? What are people doing in this business? Selling Apples? Building a windmill? Redconstructing Iraq?
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All of the above except Iraq. America has that covered with Halliburton. (Destroy the place then make money rebuilding it.....)
| Quote: |
king kakipi wrote:
Tourists come to Japan from where. Korea? (they will speak in either Korean or ENGLISH), China? (Mandarin or ENGLISH), Germany (German or English)
Go to any of those countries and get arrested and chances are that the arresting officers will not speak English.
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Went to Germany; didn't get arrested but asked police for directions in German, they told me in English. I think the Koreans have grasped English better than the Japanese in general, so, again, the chances are better.
| Quote: |
king kakipi wrote:
I come across SCHOOL students here (in Oz) from France, Germany, Italy, Korea, China, etc who can conduct a basic conversation in English.
So students visiting Australia have bothered to learn English. That's probably why they're there in the first place. Using the same logic shouldn't adults going to work in Japan learn the language?
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Have been in class rooms in both France and Germany. These kids can speak English pretty well even in their own countries, believe me.
Yes, I speak Japanese as best I can in Japan, as previously stated
| Quote: |
And yet you think it's up to the Japanese in Japan to learn English to help the monolingual foreigners that go to work there! Somehow I doubt you would be so generous to foreigners entering Australia and refusing to learn English because the Australian police should speak Cantonese, after all Chinese language is by far the widest spoken language in Asia and in fact the most commonly spoken language on earth. Or perhaps they should learn a native aboriginal dialect of the indiginous population?
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No, I think the police who are involved in raiding establishments frequented by gaijin should You're wrong about Oz too. They don't speak Cantonese (why would they, we are not overflowing with people from Hong Kong) but when they try to find mainland Chinese workers working illegally they take INTERPRETERS who can speak Mandarin. Wow, what initiative. The airports are the same; they bring in INTERPRETERS. They even do it in The Bill (yes, I know it is fiction, but recognised by real police as being the most realistic cop show)
Why would police learn Nyungar or Koori; those languages are pretty much OBSOLETE amongst the aborigines themselves. They do employ Aboriginal Police Officers to help with cultural matters.
Whatever defence you offer, my dear Bulgaria, the Japanese police, in the main are inept and none too bright. |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| king kakipi wrote: |
| Yes, I speak Japanese as best I can in Japan, as previously stated |
Translation: "I don't speak Japanese in Japan." |
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king kakipi
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 353
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Shuize wrote:-
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king kakipi wrote:
Yes, I speak Japanese as best I can in Japan, as previously stated
Translation: "I don't speak Japanese in Japan." |
Translation: Shuize can't understand basic statements, in English |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| Translation: Shuize points out how silly, naive and illogical you are being in this thread. Really, there are just so many instances. |
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japanman
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 281
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
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I don't think that the police haere should learn English, if they learn any language it should be Mandarin or Korean. It may however be a good idea to have Tourist Police like you find in many countries, helping tourists who have been victims and arresting the criminal ones. japan howver has such a low crime rate, taht such a system isn't needed.
I've never heard of bars in kyoto being raided by the police, maybe Hiroshima police are particulary harsh. Had no problems with them at all in the time that i've been here. When I was living in bangkok i had a couple of bad experiences, including stretching my arms and legs out on the side of my taxi etc. |
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