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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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 Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:19 am Post subject: "Don't go to Taiwan. . .!" |
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I met a resaurant worker here in the states working at 'The Mandarin Inn', a Chinese place where I eat. Good food. But I started a little chat with her and told her I was going to Taiwan, wanted to check her out. "Where are you from?" I interjected.
"From Taiwan. Keelung(she called it Jeelung.) Don't go to Taiwan. Lots of crazy people," she added.
I was a little curious, but not taken aback, so I said, "Why?"
"Guy knifed some people on the street with scissors, just went up and down, stabbing them in the head."
"That's nothing new," I thought. But I wonder. Are there a lot of crazy people-incidents in Taiwan? Do you have to be wary, and if so, of whom and what?
Thing was, I'd thought she actually wanted to say more, as if something deeper was on her mind but that her Chinese reserve kept any critical remarks from surfacing about the Taiwanese people. I've noticed this in a couple of other Taiwanese that immigrate to the West, be it Canada, the U.S. or wherever. I think they find it better here. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: |
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What your your friend from Jilong (Keelong is an old romanization scheme, but it has always been pronounced like a "j" sound) recounts is a common experience for locals living here. How to relate this to someone who's never been here? Generally speaking, law and order are less established here and policing is borderline ineffective. People are often not very kind to each other.
What does this mean to the prospective efl teacher? We are not really part of the society and, as such, are less likely to see the side of Taiwan your friend relates. In fact, for most of us, Taiwan is somewhat safer than the societies we left. Head for a major city like Taipei and it's likely you'll never know what your friend was talking about. |
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JohnConnor
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Crystal Peak
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| It's possible this person could've been from Mainland China and will say anything about Taiwan to convince a foreigner that Taiwan's not a place to go. Correct me if I'm wrong. Besides aren't there thousands of foreigners teaching in Taiwan? I mean, it's so popular to teach there that you have to have a degree to teach there. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| JohnConnor wrote: |
| It's possible this person could've been from Mainland China and will say anything about Taiwan to convince a foreigner that Taiwan's not a place to go. Correct me if I'm wrong. Besides aren't there thousands of foreigners teaching in Taiwan? I mean, it's so popular to teach there that you have to have a degree to teach there. |
It's unlikely a mainlander would say something like this, much less know where Jilong is. In all probability, the person is legit. It's just a reality that the Taiwan expats experience and the one locals live in are different. |
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Serious_Fun
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1171
Location: terra incognita
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: "Don't go to Taiwan. . .!" |
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| StayingPower wrote: |
| I met a resaurant worker here in the states working at 'The Mandarin Inn', a Chinese place where I eat. Good food. |
aaaah.....therein lies the problem. Never, I repeat NEVER, eat good food.
| StayingPower wrote: |
"Guy knifed some people on the street with scissors, just went up and down, stabbing them in the head."
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This was obviously a lack of good scissor etiquette. How many times have we told our students Do Not Run With Scissors!?
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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to carry blunted scissors just in case.
I wonder, however, if you're all right to carry pocket knives?
Seriously, I just wonder what you all do for self-defense there. Do you use 'the buddy system' a lot? |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| StayingPower wrote: |
I'm going to carry blunted scissors just in case.
I wonder, however, if you're all right to carry pocket knives?
Seriously, I just wonder what you all do for self-defense there. Do you use 'the buddy system' a lot? |
I wouldn't carry an illegal weapon here, unless you want to see the inside of an Asian jail.
I tried to impress on you that you needn't worry to excess. A foreigner's largest concern here is most often property theft, usually in the form of stolen scooters or bicycles. Foreigners aren't usually targetted for anything else. Personal protection/ self defence needn't be a an overly large concern and it is best acheived through awareness as opposed to weapons or anything active. Best you can do is avoid associations with shady people, be careful when approaching local women in bars and being extra careful on the roads if you choose to operate a vehicle.
Live in a major city and get around on public transport and it's unlikely you'll ever know what your friend was talking about. Ironically, Taiwan isn't as safe for the locals as it is for foreign residents. Foreigners, more than just not targets for crime, are actively avoided. In all likelihood, you'll find Taiwan to be as safe-- if not safer-- than where you currently reside. |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| I just wonder what you all do for self-defense there |
I don't think you need worry. Your only concern maybe not getting hit by a car when on a scooter. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| What your your friend from Jilong (Keelong is an old romanization scheme, but it has always been pronounced like a "j" sound) recounts is a common experience for locals living here. How to relate this to someone who's never been here? Generally speaking, law and order are less established here and policing is borderline ineffective. People are often not very kind to each other. |
Steve, I know you generally don't express such an opinion. I don't think you meant it to come off so harshly.
Taiwan is almost certainly safer than any Western country, particularly for a foreigner. I remember the story of the older man who awas running around with scissors for a few hours. The difference here is that the crazy person stabs people with scissors instead of randomly firing with a sniper rifle or opening up in a school cafeteria.
Foreigners encounter almost zero crime here in Taiwan. The only thing I've ever heard of is an occassional scooter being stolen.
I genuinely feel much safer here than I do back home. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Best you can do is avoid associations with shady people, be careful when approaching local women in bars and being extra careful on the roads if you choose to operate a vehicle.
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| Foreigners, more than just not targets for crime, are actively avoided. |
I think both the above quotes paint a picture of Taiwan that is very different than reality.
You won't have many opportunities to associate with "shady people" (And how exactly do we judge that?). You also don't need to worry about approaching local women, as long as you are mature and respectful in the way you do it. In fact, they WANT you to approach them, much of the time.
As for driving on the local roads, I have a scooter and so do many of the people I know. In fact, I know a lot of 22 year old females, straight out of school, who have never been abroad before, who have scooters. Most of us have had minor bang ups, but driving a scooter is one of the most exciting and fun aspects of being here, for many people.
Taiwanese people love to be friends with foreigners and are extremely open, honest and giving people. Are there some that aren't? Of course, just like anywhere.
If you are a friendly, outgoing, sincere and flexible person, then you will almost certainly have a great experience here. |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
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Best you can do is avoid associations with shady people, be careful when approaching local women in bars and being extra careful on the roads if you choose to operate a vehicle.
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| Foreigners, more than just not targets for crime, are actively avoided. |
I think both the above quotes paint a picture of Taiwan that is very different than reality.
You won't have many opportunities to associate with "shady people" (And how exactly do we judge that?). You also don't need to worry about approaching local women, as long as you are mature and respectful in the way you do it. In fact, they WANT you to approach them, much of the time.
As for driving on the local roads, I have a scooter and so do many of the people I know. In fact, I know a lot of 22 year old females, straight out of school, who have never been abroad before, who have scooters. Most of us have had minor bang ups, but driving a scooter is one of the most exciting and fun aspects of being here, for many people.
Taiwanese people love to be friends with foreigners and are extremely open, honest and giving people. Are there some that aren't? Of course, just like anywhere.
If you are a friendly, outgoing, sincere and flexible person, then you will almost certainly have a great experience here. |
Now that's more like it. Well said. But it begs the question, how many is a lot?  |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
| I think both the above quotes paint a picture of Taiwan that is very different than reality. |
I think your picture of Taiwan is one that suggests you a) haven't been here long b) haven't been outside Taipei enough c) do not really understand the place. d) have rose colored glasses on
| SanChong wrote: |
| You won't have many opportunities to associate with "shady people" (And how exactly do we judge that?). |
One person told me once how cool it was when they discovered a bar frequented by gangsters in Zhongli. There most certainly are opportunities for interaction with shady people.
| SanChong wrote: |
You also don't need to worry about approaching local women, as long as you are mature and respectful in the way you do it. In fact, they WANT you to approach them, much of the time. |
Actually, this is one of the classic ways violent encounters occur between expats and locals. It often plays out as local guy feels scorned by a woman and then sees her with a foreigner. Alcohol induces a rage and he proceeds to hit the foreigner over the head with a bottle. This happened to a foreign cast member of a fairly high profile visiting production not long ago. If you frequent bars, be aware of your surroundings and be careful who you talk to.
| SanChong wrote: |
| As for driving on the local roads, I have a scooter and so do many of the people I know. In fact, I know a lot of 22 year old females, straight out of school, who have never been abroad before, who have scooters. Most of us have had minor bang ups, but driving a scooter is one of the most exciting and fun aspects of being here, for many people. |
I own a car and a couple of scooters. Driving is not exciting. It's dangerous and stressful. It's only exciting if you think buses and 18 wheelers tailgating you in the rain is fun. The driving is 3rd world, bordering on homicidal. Also, many people carry weapons in their cars. Minor traffic incidents can escalate into people trying to box you in and attacking you with weapons. This happened to me once and to most people I know who've operated vehicles here over the long term. Don't be so wide eyed and naiive.
| SanChong wrote: |
| Taiwanese people love to be friends with foreigners and are extremely open, honest and giving people. |
What a stereotype. Many people new to the place think everyone likes them. The parts I love best about your characterization are "honest and open." Anyone who truly understands this place can have a good laugh at that.
Taiwan a dangerous place? It depends. Taipei is a very different world from the rest of the island. Live in town and take the MRT everywhere and you won't notice the problems. Live outside it and you'll see quite a bit more. We foreigners live a bubble boy existence here, but things aren't all rosey. Despite the tendency for the false fronts and skyscrapers of Taipei to deceive the expat, this place has real social problems. Locals know about them, more readily recount them than wide eyed foreigners and, indeed, often emigrate precisely because of these problems. Long termers and those residing outside the foreigner enclaves quickly realise the potential for violence is very much real and that, when it happens, the police and courts are utterly useless; they won't help.
What does this mean for OP? Well, your friend is right in many ways. Should this dicourage you? Not really. Most problems occur between locals. What you should take from her warnings (and I think her word can be trusted more than any foreigner who tries to portray this place as a utopia) is a lesson in the realities of this place. Know that you probably won't be subjected to these realities as a foreigner, but know that they are there. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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I think your picture of Taiwan is one that suggests you a) haven't been here long b) haven't been outside Taipei enough c) do not really understand the place. d) have rose colored glasses on
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Actually, as we have gone through on this board several times, the opposite is true:
1) I speak Chinese at a fairly fluent (and totally conversational) level
2) I lived for almost 2 years in SanChong (hence my tag name). San Chong is supposedly known as the "Crime Capital" of Taiwan and I lived right in the heart of it. I've also lived in Manhattan and Queens, so any characterization of my opinion as "naiive" is false and assumes way too much on your end.
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| One person told me once how cool it was when they discovered a bar frequented by gangsters in Zhongli. There most certainly are opportunities for interaction with shady people. |
We have gone through this many times and then you let it go. Tell me ONCE of a situation when a foreigner was hassled by a "gangster". JUST ONCE. I know there have been a few times a foreigner has been in a fight in a bar here. Does that not happen back home? In New York, I saw bar fights EVERY WEEKEND. I've NEVER seen one here (and it's not because I don't go out enough!).
As long as you are friendly, it's essentially impossible for a local to aggressively harrass you. What's my evidence? The FACTS. It just doesn't happen. If it did, then people would run to their computer to post about it.
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| [I own a car and a couple of scooters. Driving is not exciting. It's dangerous and stressful. It's only exciting if you think buses and 18 wheelers tailgating you in the rain is fun. The driving is 3rd world, bordering on homicidal. Also, many people carry weapons in their cars. Minor traffic incidents can escalate into people trying to box you in and attacking you with weapons. This happened to me once and to most people I know who've operated vehicles here over the long term. Don't be so wide eyed and naiive. |
Driving is certainly more dangerous than the US. However, to say that driving here is the equivalent of "3rd world" is a completely irresponsible statement. Have you been to Thailand, Vietnam, China? These are places that have actual 3rd world driving standards. Taiwan is much more organized. Admittedly, it's a messy place to drive and different than back home. However, your characterization is a gross exaggeration.
And, MOST people you know have been attacked with weapons after a traffic incident? You can't possibly have meant to say something so ridiculous.
Some more background: I've ridden my scooter cross island from Taipei to Kending and back with a few friends. I've driven a car back and forth from Taipei to Kaohsiung dozens of times. The highways here are no different than back home, especially since the new Highway 3 opened up.
I know as much as there is to know about the streets of Taiwan.
In fact, 10 of my friends and I take scooter trips through Taipei County about once a month. It's always fun for the locals to see 10 foreigners driving scooters in a little gang. We are all in our 20's and all Westerners and we seem to be handling the driving without a problem.
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| Actually, this is one of the classic ways violent encounters occur between expats and locals. It often plays out as local guy feels scorned by a woman and then sees her with a foreigner. Alcohol induces a rage and he proceeds to hit the foreigner over the head with a bottle. This happened to a foreign cast member of a fairly high profile visiting production not long ago. If you frequent bars, be aware of your surroundings and be careful who you talk to. |
Utter nonsense. I'm out at bars in Taipei every weekend. Name a bar: I've likely frequented it. I've never seen anything like this. I HAVE seen it in New York, London and other Western cities. Maybe you need to get out more. Feel free to come to Taipei anytime and see for yourself.
You are beginning to sound like my government trying to needlessly frighten the electorate before an election!
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What a stereotype. Many people new to the place think everyone likes them. The parts I love best about your characterization are "honest and open." Anyone who truly understands this place can have a good laugh at that.
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Look, is Taiwan perfect? Of course not. Are there problems? Yes, certainly. However, I think it's important for this board to accurately reflect the experience most people have here. The vast majority of us Westerners are incredibly impressed by Taiwanese generosity and kindness. They are very open and friendly to foreigners. I'm not saying that some people don't have a different experience. However, most foreigners leave Taiwan with only good things to say about it's people.
You continuously mention how foreigners can be "naiive" about Taiwan. An equally large problem are foreigners who have been here too long and are bitter about things. They many times have blinders on and complain incessantly about things. They can be very out of touch with reality and this gives all of us a bad name. They assume that things that go wrong are "Taiwanese" problems rather than issues that happen all around the world and most certainly in our country.
I'd say the experience each of us have in Taiwan is more dependent on the individual then the Taiwanese. After all, it's their country and we are guests.
The point of this is that Taiwan is safe. VERY safe. Much safer than most Western countries. The crime rate in Taiwan is much lower than the US. Look it up. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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TS, actually I prefer some third world traffic to that of Taipei. Sure, it may be a lot crazier and less organised in Phnom Penh but at least there aren't any buses and taxis trying to drive into me there. But you do get used to it here and it can be a lot of fun wizzing through the streets on the back of a bike once you get used to it.
Many drivers here do carry mini baseball bats in their cars so be careful who you piss off. Sometimes it is just better to let things go.
I've never had any problems with fights for chatting to a local girl. But it doesn't mean others haven't.
Taiwanese open and honest? Some of them I'm sure are. But there sure are a lot of others who are as fake as a Thai rolex. You won't know until it is too late. I think there is a lot of distrust between foreigners and Taiwanese here, whether at work or on the dating scene. I guess it is just too easy to generalise a whole race sometimes when you get burned. |
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kuberkat
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 358
Location: Oman
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, Serious Fun should start syndicating those luminious posts that bring some light-hearted perspective to forum madness. I don't know who you are but I totally love you.
And second of all, hey, I think this thread proves that the magical land called REALITY has many different faces. in Taiwan, just like everywhere else. |
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