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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: Re: Korea and Japan and a Masters Degree |
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| tokyobound wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Smooth Operator wrote: |
Funny post. Be honest with yourself, does one really need an Applied Linguistics MA to TEACH ESL? Of course not, but many places ask for it as a sign of academic diligence. |
In what other profession would a lack of relevant knowledge and experience be defended as acceptable? |
Wouldn't the difference with trying to be lawyer without a law degree and trying to be a doctor without a relevant degree (which were the examples you used) be that you are learning something that you have no prior knowledge to compared to one that you have a great deal of knowledge about already?
I mean, we can all speak english, we've been learning it since we were young, meaning we are teaching something we have a complete knowledge and understanding of. |
So we can all teach human biology because we have bodies? We can all teach psychiatry because we have brains? We can all teach literature because we can read? Have you ever looked at an ESOL curriculum?
Not only do teachers of ESOL/EFL need to have a high level of grammatical, discourse knowledge and ability but they should also be trained in teaching to speakers of other languages. We're not talking about giving a bog standard Nova parrot-lesson here, we're talking about university lecturers. "Hey you speak English, come be an ESOL professor oh mighty white man!"
If you were doing a university course in languages and discovered that your tutors only skill was that he could speak, wouldn't you be slightly worried!?
The idea that everyone is a suitable teacher just because they can speak is ridiculous and the most commonly spouted fallacy that keeps the standards of language education at rock bottom in many countries. To prove this about 50% of qualified ESOL teachers in the UK are non-native speakers, why? Because they often have a far greater language knowledge and understanding of student needs than native speakers.
Go to any ESOL teacher training course and you will see that it is the monolingual native English speakers that struggle hardest to get to grips with even basic concepts of grammar and discourse due to their limited language experiences.
| tokyobound wrote: |
| If you are going to compare it to other occupations wouldn't you say a scientist who has no teaching experience could still teach science with only a small amount of teaching qualifications if they knew what they were talking about? |
If you were teaching science at a high school then you wouldn't be allowed anywhere near a child without teaching qualifications. If you were teaching at university then you'd have an MA or Ph.D. in the relevant subject. You certainly wouldn't be able to teach chemistry if you had a pschology MA and use the excuse that "Hey they're both sciences." |
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Smooth Operator
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 140
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Easy tiger! Five people have disagreed with you (and at least 4 of them presently work in Japanese universities) and you won't let it go.
Two points to consider: many (most?) teachers with an MA in Applied Linguistics never teach anything about Linguistics in their classes. So, why is it so necessary FOR EVERYONE to have one? Perhaps because it is the qualification which is the most useful for getting a job at a uni here. The lowest common denominator. If you don't believe me, ask some people in that situation.
As I already said, it is well known that experience and other abilities go a long way in securing a job at uni here. I work with others who have the
MA in Applied Linguistics. They don't get better evaluations than me and don't demonstrate a superior knowledge of teaching and the English language.
You have yet to answer my question: have you worked at a Japanese university? If not, why are on this thread dispensing advice?
Anyway, I hope the OP is satisfied with the replies he/she has received.
To summarise, having an MA in a different field can help you get SOME jobs as you stand out from the pack. Whilst you do narrow down your options, as some places will only hire MA in Applied Linguistics holders, other places are more open minded and will look at a range of factors not just your MA. How does one stand out from the crowd? Have an MA that somewhat coincides with the Dept. or Faculty one is applying to. That is how I got my uni job in Japan.... |
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johanne
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I mean, we can all speak english, we've been learning it since we were young, meaning we are teaching something we have a complete knowledge and understanding of.
If you are going to compare it to other occupations wouldn't you say a scientist who has no teaching experience could still teach science with only a small amount of teaching qualifications if they knew what they were talking about? |
| Quote: |
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but this is the type of comment that I feel I have to respond to. Having knowledge of what you are teaching is only the very beginning of being qualified to teach a subject. Yes, you have to know what you are talking about, but really if that's all you have going for you, you are an incompetant teacher and should choose another profession. The most important skill in teaching, IMHO, is the ability to communicate the information to your students in meaningful ways that allow them to use that information in context and then give them practice applying that information to other situations. Then, you need proper assessments that tell you what your students know (which is different than how well they can complete a test) the material, both the facts and the applications. After that, you need the ability to tweak any future lessons to make sure the students get the instruction they missed out on the first time around. A truly gifted teacher will also motivate students and get them interested in learning more on their own.
So, sorry I think knowledge of the subject is worth about 10% and knowing how to teach and having the qualifications that helped you get those skills and knowledge is worth 90%. That's why a trained, experience non-native speaker is a much better ESL teacher than a native speaker straight off the boat.
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GWUstudent
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 29
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: interesting thread |
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I took a Chinese class at a decent, respected University here in the US a while ago, and was taught by a native Chinese speaker with an MA in an unrelated subject.
Just wanted to throw that out there. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Smooth Operator wrote: |
| Five people have disagreed with you (and at least 4 of them presently work in Japanese universities) and you won't let it go. |
Let what go? I stand behind all the points I've made.
I'm aware that there are many English 'instructors' in universities that don't have any qualifications in teaching or TEFL/Applied Linguistics. A university I knew of actually farmed out many English classes to Berlitz, against their own policies. It all depends on the availability, budget and needs of the uni.
What I would consider to be totally unprincipled is the full time employment of a language 'professor' with no qualifications in the subject to which they are employed. If uncovered the university in question would be a laughing stock.
English 'natives' employed to teach an eikaiwa, to similar standards as Nova or Berlitz are in a different category altogether. Even so I'm sure that it's against university policy to employ untrained/unqualified English language instructors, even though it's often done. It runs contrary to ethics and union rules I believe (according to my Japanese professor buddy).
That it can be done doesn't mean it should be done, or is even actually allowed.
To anyone with long term tenure at a university in Japan as a language educator I would urge you to get some training, if not for your students sake then for your own sake. Without certification any experience you get will be absolutely worthless when trying to get a job (let lone a university position) in the area of language education in a country with regulated standards.
After some initial study of language education I suspect you'd agree with a lot of what I've said anyway.
| Smooth Operator wrote: |
| many (most?) teachers with an MA in Applied Linguistics never teach anything about Linguistics in their classes. |
Lucky, as Applied Linguistics courses cover a significantly different curriculum to Linguistics courses. There's some crossover, but not as much as you'd think.
AL is all about how language reseach and practice is applied in real world situations. That's why it's so important in language education.
| Smooth Operator wrote: |
| So, why is it so necessary FOR EVERYONE to have one? Perhaps because it is the qualification which is the most useful for getting a job at a uni here. |
In reality if someone is employed as a language instructor then an Med or PGCE in TEFL/ESOL/EFL is of far more use than an MA in Applied Linguistics. If, however someone is employed to conduct research as well as to teach then an MA in AL is absolutely the bare minimum.
This isn't just me making stuff up, ask any self respecting university. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Not only do teachers of ESOL/EFL need to have a high level of grammatical, discourse knowledge and ability but they should also be trained in teaching to speakers of other languages. We're not talking about giving a bog standard Nova parrot-lesson here, we're talking about university lecturers. |
So, when I teach some courses in university that are designed for oral communication, and I use textbooks designed for eikaiwa, why is that? We all know the level of conversation ability of high school graduates is miserably low, and that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach them something along the lines of an eikaiwa lesson. To me, the challenge in such classes is trying to do that with 30-70 students in the room, which I've had (both in HS and university). I'm full-time, but there are plenty of part-time university teachers out there with not so grand qualifications who are asked to teach such courses, too. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| it doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach them something along the lines of an eikaiwa lesson. |
That's the point, audiolingual eikaiwa lessons are crap and pretty much a joke as far as language teaching goes. Whilst they are a fixture on the Japanese high street due to commerce they really have no place at somewhere dealing in actual education.
| Glenski wrote: |
| To me, the challenge in such classes is trying to do that with 30-70 students in the room, which I've had (both in HS and university). |
Yes the logistics of teaching such mammoth classes is daunting.
How do you find that the audiolingual methods designed for small, private eikaiwa translate to such jumbo classes?
| Glenski wrote: |
| I'm full-time, but there are plenty of part-time university teachers out there with not so grand qualifications who are asked to teach such courses, too. |
I wouldn't call teacher training courses 'grand'. They are there to enable teachers to better manage wide varieties of classroom situations, and to ensure that students receive appropriate and effective classes based on up to date methodology. |
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