Job Discussion Forums

[kdynamic]

This topic began in another thread, but seemed to deserve a thread in its own right. I posted these quotes to let new people know where the conversation went.

[6810]

I think that what the conversation shows is the importance of understanding that most language is idiomatic and not literal.

The way we constantly use metaphors and metonyms to stand in for "literal" communication. Observe yourself and see how often you "directly" communicate without any simile, metaphor or accreted idioms... not much.

What this says to me, is that language is largely contextual, what we speak is where we're from and where we're at.

Japanese developed for a long time in isolation compared to English (as we all know). My point is not that it is special or whatever, rather, that its idiomatic nuances are rather different to those found in English (and indeed many other languages, but then again, even between European languages, quite often idioms and sayings and so on don't translate or else lose all nuance as they lose their context...).

The point? Remebering the idiomatic nature of language when we translate and that aside from nouns, virtually everything else (including nouns in phrases/sentences) is the translation of information in one cerebral, social, linguistic, psychological, geographical context to information in another...

All translation is cultural translation.

That said, the quality of a translation of a word or a phrase from English to Japanese or vice versa is entirely dependent on the linguistic skill and experience of the translator. Think about it - we go to all lengths to communicate, no matter what with people in the same language - lovers, children etc and we aren't always necessarily aware of the full meaning or nuance of what we are communicating. But we do it nonetheless.

[6810]

[shuize]

I seem to recall this subject discussed in one of the Power Japanese books "Gone Fishing" (It's old -- it may have a new title now).

The author basically laughed at the notion Japanese is somehow more mysterious and incomprehensible than any other language.

The Japanese, of course, push this idea more than anyone.

[kdynamic]

[luckyloser700]

[kdynamic]

Sometimes when I am interpreting informally for people, I let go of translating what the person is saying at all and just translate the situation wholisticly both ways.

Like if a local English teachers wants me to interpret between her and her supervisor about something they disagree on, I will end up saying something like this to the English teacher "She is saying something along these lines or those lines, but it's because she has this obligation to this person and there is this rule in Japan so she has to, but if we do this or this later we can get around it so just nod and smile. good. keep smiling." And then turn to the supervisor and say "the ALT is saying this and this, but it's because in her country it's thought of this way and she's got to be afraid that this or this might happen but we know it won't, but she doesn't so why don't you assure her of that? She doesn't know the question she wants to ask is this so why not just go ahead and tell her about it?"

I would never do this in a formal or important situation, or in a professional capacity, since I have a responsibility to just interpret what people are saying and not to get involved. But when it's informal and my main goal is to keep the peace and facilitate understanding all around, I find that if you just say exactly what people are saying a lot of times it leads to more misunderstandings due to lack of cultural understanding.

Of course, this only works when neither of them speak the other's language at all!

[Zzonkmiles]

This is why I don't recommend using "language exchange" as a way to learn Japanese. Even though most of us here are trained in or experienced with teaching English (either through our jobs here or university training back home), your Japanese "language exchange partner" usually isn't. This means things are pretty much hit or miss regarding their ability to clearly explain things to you.

[gaijinalways]

Interesting, I would have thought that you would have supported doing exchanges for another purpose (especially if your partners are opposite sex and nubile).

But truthfully, it's this cultural patterning that is sometimes difficult to grab onto and master, and a lot of conditioned responses in some languages sound strange if directly translated into your own language. For example, the Chinese question "Have you eaten yet?" is not usually concerned with whether you are hungry or not, it is more of a greeting. Likewise the use of "la" which is a 'completed action' particle in Chinese often needs to be hung on some sentences that don't seem to need it (even the Chinese disagree about some cases of usage).

Many of the Japanese expressions used are nonsensical at best in English, so that keigo statements issued to a client coming to your office for the first time translate in English to simply "Welcome to our company, we are glad you could come" rather than five minutes of thank you, thank you, thank you.

Making the transition and not simply translating everything directly is a skill as is understanding what the original intent and the emotional tone of the message was. You see this often with movie subtitles where often the translators give up and insert another joke that Japanese probably would find funny rather than the original situation in English which may not be culturally funny in Japanese.

[JimDunlop2]

Keigo really stirs my stew! I can understand that Japanese people are all but required to use it, but when it's obvious that it's causing a communication barrier, I find that there are very few people who are capable of switching to regular Japanese on their own initiative without me asking them to please stop using honorific language... Some people (usually the ones who have some experience dealing with non-native Japanese speakers) will make the switch when they realize they are losing you. Others need to be told specifically and explicitly. "Please speak simply and slowly. And If I don't understand, try to say the same thing using different words or in a different way."

In any event, I highly recommend this book if you want to educate yourself in keigo a little more. I've studied it sporadically and have gotten so that I can USE some keigo if/when needed but my proficiency is nowhere near where I'd like it to be.

Minimum Essential Politeness: A Guide to the Japanese Honorific Language by Agnes M. Niyekawa

General Information: Publisher: Kodansha International. 1991. ISBN 4-7700-1624-7

[Yawarakaijin]

I totally hear you Jim. I understand if they have trouble translating or giving me the exact meaning of say an idiom or something but getting back to the ryoshusho thing as an example. Is it so hard for a Japanese person to say something like, " its a piece of paper you get from the cashier after you buy something." I don't belive that needs any special cultural understanding but perhaps I am wrong Hell if i met an Japanese person who did'nt know what a ryoshusho was I'm pretty confident I could explain it in my limited Japanese, why can't they?

[kdynamic]

I actually had that exact experience at the bank recently. I didn't know what 'tesuuryo' was. I asked the lady 'Is there another way to describe that in Japanese?' and she flat out said 'no, there is no possible way to express this using different words.' So I pulled out my dictionary and looked it up. Turns out it means service charge. DUH! I can think of 10 ways to explain that in simple Japanese. I don't get what the problem is.

[J.]

When I think back to my first days here, I cringe a bit at how riddled with idioms my speech was. I wasn't aware of how hard to understand what I was saying would be to a non-native speaker. I had to put a lot of effort into simplifying the way I spoke to students, and a lot of thought into how I explained the meanings of words too. It wasn't something that came naturally, by any means. Speaking slowly was also a big challenge; I remember being so tired at the end of the day from the strain of speaking slowly and trying to purge most idioms. I had the motivation to do it because I needed it for my job. But I think the average person, who isn't a language teacher, just isn't used to thinking about it and hasn't developed the skill.

If you talk to English language teachers, who are native Japanese teachers and have a reasonable level of English, I think you may have better luck in having a conversation that goes somewhere. I also don't think that schools here develop critical thinking skills to the degree that would help people be able to answer questions that they don't already have an answer to, more's the pity.

[luckyloser700]

[SeasonedVet]

6810 wrote: