Job Discussion Forums

[thermal]

[JimDunlop2]

EXCELLENT work! Thank you again, Thermal!!!

Frankly, I wouldn't mind being bored with some of the details of how you had your randomizer and what you did to fix it -- call me a nerd, but this sort of thing interests me in a way -- that is, if you want to. (You can send a PM if you want or if you want to keep it out of the main thread)...

Cheers!

[Mark]

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Remembering_The_Kanji/
http://www.kanji.koohii.com/

Here are some sites that offer support for those learning kanji with the Heisig method. I haven't used the sites myself, but just recently came across them.

[thermal]

More than happy to, love going on about this stuff.

Getting a true random number is tricky for a computer. For example you could read the time very precicesly and take the 10th, 11th and 12th digit to be the random number (eg .569). But even such a method is not perfect and generally the more random the number, the more effort involved in generating it.

Given this and that rarely is it an issue if a sequence is not pefectly random the computer uses an approximation method. It does this by having a mathamatical formula that produces numbers that are virtually random, but may for example repeat the pattern after 10 million numbers (generating PI is an example of this although it is actually random). The problem with this method is that it can't be the same pattern everytime, otherwise the exact same sequence will be produced. To get around this the formula takes a seed number, which is inputed into the formula and changes the entire "random" pattern produced. Typically this is derived from the current time.

My mistake was creating a new pattern and taking the first value produced everytime a new kanji was required. Due to the formulaic nature of the generator, even with a differing seed creating different numbers, only certain numbers could be chosen as the first in the pattern.

EG with a limit of 1 to 200, regardless of the seed chosen the pattern will never start with 2.

All I did to fix it was create the one pattern when the program starts and traverse through it each time a random number is needed. This probably sounds pretty complex, but its the guts of the why it was failing. To write code to do this you don't need to know this, just use it in the way it was intended.

The code to create a random between 1 to 200 is just

random.next(1, 200);

Too easy

Some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_seed

[JimDunlop2]

Progress update: 10/4/06:

I must admit -- I've slowed down. A LOT! I'm the type of person who likes to do a million different things at the same time, which means that, inevitably, things get pushed to the back-burner. However, I'm still committed to this kanji project so I resurrected my flashcards yesterday after almost 2 weeks, and found my retention was still essentially 100%. In addition, I made up a new batch of about 40 flashcards.

That's my biggest gripe at the moment. Flashcards. I find it highly mendoukusai to continually make up new flashcards. Why? Because first I have to cut them up from A4 sheets, then I have to write the kanji, its respective keyword on the back, and often the mnemonic as well. It's almost pointless because I actually memorize them so quickly, I only use the actual, physical card 3 or 4 times before I'm moving on to a new set. But I don't want to abandon the flashcard system either, (and use Thermal's system exclusively) because Heisig does hint and suggest at the fact that flashcards will come in very handy when you get to book 2 and start learning the kun-yomi and on-yomi. That, and I also get more practice in the actual writing of the characters when I write them onto flashcards..

So, that all in turn affects my frequency of learning new kanji... Since it is so time-consuming to create new flashcards, and by the time I create them, I already half-know the characters, I am reluctant to take the cards with me to the gym or to a restaurant to practice with -- because I feel like I should be working on material that I don't already half-know.

My current attempt at a solution is this: make up no less than 50 cards at a time... Which is more than I can remember at once -- hence giving me a challenge and thus causing me to take the flashcards with me when I go out.

Anyway, I've currently learned the first 160 kanji... (Yeah, I know that's not many) ... But you wanna know what a stack of 160 flashcards looks like? Yeesh! It's about the same thickness of James Clavell's novel: Shogun. I'm gonna be up to my wazoo in flashcards by the time I hit 2000!

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. In addition to that, I've also registered in a couple of the Heisig system online support groups whose links were posted up earlier in the thread. They're kinda fun-ish but nothing substitutes sitting in a quiet room with no other distractions, pen in hand, and just attacking the book HARD.

Please excuse my extended ramblings on.

[tsneds01]

I recommend Kanji and Kana by Wolfgang Hadamizky. Excellent book!

[thermal]

I bought the flash cards for the Heisig method but don't use them. I have plenty of other Japanese to study when I am out and find using my program easier.

I have been having a bit of trouble with the method recently. I keep refining the process I use when I commit the story to memory but there are still lots that I didn't commit that well. Also I have been too busy with other stuff to revise enough and I am forgetting them.

I should have time to revise more soon and hopefully my evovling method of committing to memory will pay dividends.

I have learnt 400 so far.

[Atlas*]

i started this about 3 weeks ago i think and seem to have learnt a fair few kanji. but out of the 100 or so i have studied, i have really only learnt about 70-80, maybe i am not studying them hard enough, or my brain gets tired towards the end of my lesson times. i have also found that i was easily distracted from studying them, my japanese is very limited and i usually change from learning kanji to learning phrases and listening exercises instead. for my short term goals these feel more worthwhile, even though i am trying to give myself a balanced education of the whole language, which of course can't be done overnight. still sticking with it, but hope for some renewed kanji study energy, hmm maybe should have a redbull before i study?

also maybe it is because i am trying to go slow and learn the kanji that my motivation is down? i am trying about 10-20 per lesson so i don't overwhelm myself, not that i don't feel i could do more. quickly learning kanji is not my goal here, but the goal is to just LEARN them.

well will stick with it and see how i go this week.

[thermal]

Atlas,

If you keep struggling with it, check out page 108 + 109. Heisig explains exactly the process to follow when doing the memorization.

Bear in mind that I think he leaves this detailed instruction later on for good reason. As you need to get a feel for the method before you recieve more instruction. So I would avoid looking at it unless you are really struggling. First perhaps try more refreshing.

When you do memorize there are 2 key points you must do.

1. Take a moment to get a feel for the keyword. Even if it is something very simple like tree. Really feel it and its flavor to give a base for the story/picture to go on. This makes are stronger link between the two.

2. Make it visual. It is not about imagining the concepts or running through a story in your head, although these may be involved. You have to make a picture that you could if you wanted draw roughly. Its not like you see every color in your head, but each element must have a position and you have to feel the picture. I would suggest closing your eyes for this part.

Please let us know how you go.

PS.

If you missed it I wrote a program to help with the reviewing of learnt kanji. Check out http://www.users.on.net/~zeech/KanjiTester_1.0.1.zip

[Temujin]

I'm up to 1542 kanji (took me about 6 months) using the Heisig method and I can't imagine studying the kanji any other way. I haven't really given the kanji much attention lately as I've been focusing on actually learning Japanese, but I'll finish it sometime in the near future. I'll take a look at the program posted earlier. Good luck to our Heisig initiates.

[Atlas*]

thanks thermal for the help.
today i spent some time between classes reviewing what i had learnt and was suprised at how many of them i could recall - or at least could recall the story, but maybe not the actual word for the character. i will try your program as well, probably later this week, seems like other people have been enjoying that.
i have been alternating days between kanji and general phrases/words etc. but i will try and do a bit of each every day rather than every other day.

look forward to using your program, as making the flashcards, while i am sure it is useful, is quite annoying and prolongs me wanting to add to the kanji i have already learned.

will let you know how i continue on.

[japanman]

Just read another post and furiousali asked about how people were going with the Heisig method. I'd like to know myself.
I think the method is absolutely fantastic, it's taking me longer than expected but I can easily read (English meaning) around 700 kanji and it gets esaier as you go through. The pure number of them doesn't make it any more difficult. Also, very difficult looking kanji become very easy to remember. This is my second try because the first attempt failed because of things unrelated to the study of kanji. But this time it's going very well indeed. Should be finished in around three months. Learning the readings is also very systematic.

[zorro (3)]

Seems like the Heisig approach has won the battle on this thread.
Congratulations to all of those who have learned so many Kanji in such short periods of time (well what they mean in English anyway).
When/if I return to Japan I'll definitely be giving it a go.
The flashcards won't be a proble for me either because I already bought some for previous (failed) attempts at learning.

Also Jim Dunlop, you don't have to cut out little pieces of A4. Just got to any 100yen shop. They sell these little... (how can you describe them?)...er... things.... for kanji learning... They are small pieces of card (about 100 or so) attached together with a ring. You write the kanji on them, and then practice.

[sethness]

Let me go completely against the grain, here.

1) "Remembering the Kanji" is crap. I own a copy, and can honestly say it felt useless from first to last. The problem is, it's just English words describing the picture you're supposed to "see" in the Kanji. While you read the words, you're thinking in English...and struggling to imagine wtf the author is describing. Those two activities pretty much guarantee that you won't have brainpower left over to think about the word in Japanese.

2) "Remembering the Kanji" talks only about the MEANING, not the PRONUNCIATIONS nor other aspects of its use... and it's deucedly hard to find a particular Kanji if you're looking for it.

3) Most Kanji Flashcards merely present the Kanji, the pronunciation, and the English translations. They do NOT make the material memorable. That's like showing you a pool and saying "OK... go learn to swim."

4) Learning a language while thinking ONLY in that language is virtually guaranteeing that you will forget what you learn, because you have isolated the information. What you need is more like a web that ties those sounds, shapes and meanings to things that you already know. This is comparable to trying to carry a brick with one finger or with two hands. A decent mnemonic system will tie the new sounds and images to vivid things that you ALREADY know. For example, if you want to remember "Watashi" means "me", then you imagine yourself looking in a mirror while dressed like a transvestite, saying "What a SHE!" to yourself. The more entertaining/shocking/interesting the imagery, the better you will remember it.


A decent learning program will provide you with a decent mnemonic system, not merely show you the info and ask you to make it memorable on your own. Nobody understood that better than Matteo Ricci, whose "memory palace"/"absurd visual cues" system (stolen from the ancient Greeks) for remembering Kanji was the basis of his livelihood in ancient China. (He taught Chinese would-be civil servants how to pass the Chinese civil service exams. Not bad for a foreigner, eh?)

Instead of "Remembering the Kanji", I would strongly recommend a VISUAL CUES book like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Kanji-Pict-O-Graphix-Over-Japanese-Mnemonics/dp/0962813702/ref=sr_1_1/102-8505406-9263331?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178889761&sr=1-1

("Kanji Pict-o-graphix", by Michael Rowley)

As for flashcards... don't buy them. Make your own. Use a greeting-card format, not a 2-sided card. Put the Kanji on one side, a "hint drawing" or "hint phrase" on the other side to help you remember the meanings and/or pronunciations, and in the middle put sample sentences and typical multi-kanji words with that kanji.

Take the cards everywhere... and reward yourself somehow for well-done self-tests. Remember that learnign Kanji is hard, long, and boring... so you will need plenty of inducement and intermediate rewards to keep you interested in this marathon exercise.

Also, consider using software programs that give visual clues to tying the shape, meaning, and sound together. Something like the entertaining "Kantaro", for example: http://www.eduthink.com/kantaro.htm

[markle]