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| Should L1 be allowed in an ESL class? (We're talking about in-country, usually only one L1 present) |
| Yes, just to add helpful support, a "scaffold," if you will. |
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| No. It's an unnecessary crutch. |
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| Yes, but only with kids, and only to help slower students or keep discipline. |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| I mean, it is my experience that NO Chinese in class is beneficial. I think I made that clear. Or am I not getting your meaning? |
As clear as a bell old chap - right from the start - but not to worry I think the discussion has long since crept past its original level Gregor  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Okay enough of that discussion, which relates to the claim that the CT uses too much Chinese in the English language classroom - lets move onto how I implement my scaffolding system. Like I said before - all my Chinese experience relates to 3 years working in Chinese kindies -and in the kindies we have had the biggest success with. we have been there for that whole of that 3 years, with the CT's now fully accepting and copying our methods. However the principles of this teaching strategy could well be applied to older students - especially those in primary schools - whoes instincts of fascination and wanting to discover the English language seem to be often stifled by the more traditional methods of Chinese English language teaching.
Our scaffolding methods are contained within that we consider to be the three phases of teaching English as a language of communication - these being -
1. building an elementary English vocabulary - the task of learning words, and phrases - and there meaning
2. training the child to listen - questioning Children so as to make them think before making a communication back to us - much of this involves a long process of getting the kids to make "yes or no" replies, which eventualy builds into longer answers
3. training the Child to construct English language - the full loop in the program - where that vocaubulary that we have taught intermeshes so that it can be used as a communication tool. In this respect special care has to be taken in what vocabulary is taught- ie. language that is usefull for many different situations - situations that are understood, interesting and have often been experienced by the small child.
All of this is aided by using Chinese as a scaffolding, and in this post I'll re-hash a post that describes how Chinese can help in teaching vocab (phase 1) - there is nothing radical in this approach it just uses good old common sense as its main foundation stone - but it does seem to be so effective in classrooms that were getting no where with the English only approach - here it goes -
I teach kindy kids � in the type of kindergartens where the teachers were always saying English only in English classes. We now have had great success with mixing Chinese and English � having taught Children from the age of 4 the meaning and concept of English name/Chinese name. Therefore if we teach a new word (or series of words - a phrase) then it always starts out in our class as a picture (flashcard, body-language etc etc), then a Chinese word(s), then an English word(s). And until the children fully remember the English word � will we then stop asking for a Chinese name before asking for the English name. We have found this method to be very effective � with word retention being improved and many Children enjoying the challenge. If done properly it can be also entertaining with children playing the role of teacher for the FT � teaching her the word in Chinese. I theorise that the power of this method can be linked to an - associated mental picture gateway � where I utalise that picture that has already been formed through native language learning, so that mental translation becomes both quicker, effective by utalising that which has already been internalized � I would call this co-internalisation
Of course this is the way older students learn English � by learning it through Chinese, where the written word often takes the role of mental picture (anybody who has learnt a second language knows the difference between learning a word as a sound and in its written form) � but for kindy kids who cannot read, or use dictionaries � without my method they often have problems finding out what is what � and where an English only/flashcard/body-language environment seemingly just doesn�t do the job in forming that mental picture. So since some pictures can mean different things to different kids I believe its important to lable it with an understandable title in the native language.
In further posts I can tackle how we use our scaffolding system to aid the implementation of phase 2 and 3 of our teaching program. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Steppenwolf - how do you equate this comment -
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When they teach new vocabulary they read the new words aloud, then have the class repeat 3 times. This can go on and on for entire periods. The students meekly do what they are bidden to do... but if you watch a little more carefully you will notice some that do not participate in those goings-on. Don't be surprised to see a student holding the book upside down...and pretending to be "reading after the teacher".
In other words: what I saw was Chinese students drilling sound reflexes.
I envied those teachers who seldom had to deal with noisy, chattering or murmuring students during their classes, but I also felt these teachers weren't teaching their students English. |
with this other comment you made -
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| The use of Chinese in an English classroom in China sounds like affirmative action fot the retarded. It ignores the fact that our students already are overfed on Chinese as the medium of instruction. |
since it seems to me that no medium classroom language (be it Chinese or English) is being used with regard to real language learning!!! Surely even the use of Chinese in this type of lesson - for the purpose of explaining/translating - would be step-up from the method you have observed being used by CT's!!!!! So how on earth could you write in your earlier post -
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| students already are overfed on Chinese as the medium of instruction |
when in fact the students are being starved of useful, meaningful Chinese instruction - or was your quote just a reference to Chinese education in general - and plug for the creation of those type of real immersion methods as created in Canada - (what a radical idea - is English that important????)
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As Gregor said, there is no contradiction between my statements. Do I need to elaborate? I don't think so!
I never said these students don't get Chinese-medium "explanations and translations". In fact, that's what they get most of the time. Where is the time for actually using those newly-acquired lexcial items?
I suggest you spend some time observing Chinese teachers at a public primary school! Or even at a high school!
I told you before I taught in a kindergarten using virtually zero Chinese. If I succeeded at doing that, why don't primary and middle school teachers impart any meaningful English to their students? It is because all contact hours are used to drill vocables, drill and repeat phrases - preferably in chorus (!). It's a passive learning way that triggers no thinking. Students are not even asked to conjugate English verbs (drill the use of relevant person markers such as 3rd person singular -S or tenses!).
I didn't say the students get no meaningful instruction on English - I said they get it in Chinese only when it would clearly be beneficial for them to get it in English. Grammar instruction for example could be better delivered in English than in Chinese!
Surely primary and middle school students ought to be able to take notes and to write exercises gwithout being supervised by teachers and helped by their peers? Now when do our students ever do homework on their own? In fact - never! They have to sit in their dark concrete classrooms to do "self-study" together with their classmates. Is that conducive to good understanding of the subjects at hand? I tell you - this is nothing but a way of killing time!
I may surprise you even more: they memorise not just individual words removed from any context; they also memorise entire passages just like their ancestors who tried to win a job at an imperial court did by memorising whole books written by Confucius! Can we dumb down English instruction any further? I doubt it! ANd it is true: some students memorise a textbook passage or text - which they fail to understand in the target language so they 'translate' it verbatim (don't forget my warning: in translating words you lose meanings!).
Then when they recite the text they reproduce a bastardised form of the original English - translating back from Chinese into Chinglish. Past tenses are replaced by the present tense; plural markers have disappeared; pronouns are forgotten. What kind of education is this?
If you want to understand anything, you must understand the whole, the picture in which it may be a detail. Learning new words is useless if you don't need those words in well-defined contexts. Our students do not take a contextual approach to understanding new words; they understand them through translating them. That's approximately as useful a way as trying to understand the philosophy of Taoism by translating it as "the wayism".
A language3 is a mirror of the way its native speakers think; studying a foreign language is the first step to learning to think in a new, different way. That often means the wholesale adoption of new ideas and ways of thinking that cannot be rendered in one's first language.
For a Chinese learner of any western language one of the biggest challenges is to get to grips with our concept of TIME; we have clearly defined pasts, presents and futures though we also have tenses where two of them merge. Most CHinese seem to think in the present only; the past clearly is an abstract notion too difficult to use in vernacular Chinese. The same is true of future tenses. Maybe this is one reason why CHinese seem to break more promises than westerners do? (rhetorically asking!).
You need to wean your students off their boxed-in thinking! Speaking another language is not repackaging it (or putting it in new boxes).
I am also beginning to doubt you understand how the missionaries spread their western languages in the world. The accursed "grammar/translation" method you have derided so many times here doesn't exist and didn't exist except now in China - and here it is practised by Chinese English teachers. We also did it during Latin class - because our teacher treated Latin as a "dead" language; but this approach wasn't taken in modern languages I studied.
Maybe the reason why we did noticeably better at any foreign language than Chinese students do was that we had to read monolingual literature and understand that stuff without translating it. Unfortunately, very few Chinese students ever become literate enough to even read the staid China Daily... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| I am also beginning to doubt you understand how the missionaries spread their western languages in the world. |
Steppenwolf - I think most of those missionaries came to spread gospel - usualy in the native language of the land, which they were pretty good at learning, kind of got their message through in a more effective way and got them more convert points with the big G. I think it was colonialisation that was the big language spreader - you know something to do with motivating the natives to learn the lingo so they can hob-nob with the new bosses. You know that in much the same way that today's westerners are motivated to learn languages not just out of a desire to pass exams - but because of those new fangled interests in culture and travel etc. etc - that romantic dream of hob-nobing with the natives (shizer those English singing rock and roll savages have been the best teachers/motivators of all - think about how many european youngsters learnt English through a desire to sit (or lie down) with them) .
but anyways I'm always getting confused -
and another perfect example of that would be when you write something like -
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| I never said these students don't get Chinese-medium "explanations and translations". In fact, that's what they get most of the time. |
and then write -
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| I may surprise you even more: they memorise not just individual words removed from any context; they also memorise entire passages just like their ancestors who tried to win a job at an imperial court did by memorising whole books written by Confucius! |
I take context refers to "explanation and translation" - what else could it mean
but anyway I can see you're in my camp -
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| I told you before I taught in a kindergarten using virtually zero Chinese. |
see you did and maybe still do use Chinese in your classroom - watch out mate that Gregor guy will be after you
By the way your point is true on verbatim translation - but that's why the skilled teacher goes further than mere translation - and explains language use - hopefully in the L2 if L2 proficiency is high enough in the class, but being able to proceed in an L1 if it's not - an L1 use that is designed to lead to more proficient L2 understanding and allow for the student to gain those extra skills to get to an L2 only standard  |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Steppenwolf - I think most of those missionaries came to spread gospel - usualy in the native language of the land, which they were pretty good at learning, kind of got their message through in a more effective way and got them more convert points with the big G.
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| I never said these students don't get Chinese-medium "explanations and translations". In fact, that's what they get most of the time. |
and then write -
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| I may surprise you even more: they memorise not just individual words removed from any context; they also memorise entire passages just like their ancestors who tried to win a job at an imperial court did by memorising whole books written by Confucius! |
I take context refers to "explanation and translation" - what else could it mean
but anyway I can see you're in my camp -
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| I told you before I taught in a kindergarten using virtually zero Chinese. |
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Vikdk,
the water bill will ruin you at the end of this month - your wife taking that many showers so you can sneak off to the computer? Please, in your own interest, work out some compromise with the lady so you don't have to do things behind her back...
Where did we leave off?
Oh yes, the missionaries! What's there to say, hombre? Not much, except perhaps this: doesn't it make a good impression on you, vikdk, that those westerners fresh out of some convent or theological college were capable of picking up a language spoken but not written by communities living in the bush or a jungle?
Thanks to a certain Mr Jones, the majority of Indian languages were made accessible to his British fellow-expats.
Or the French who romanised the Indochinese languages... Gutzlaff et al. who made Chinese accessible to the rest of Europeans interested in that language. If Europeans as total outsiders were capable of decoding such languages, many of which only existed as oral traditions, then take your hat off in honour to these men! We are trying to make the learning of English so easy for our Chinese students - and our success is so minimal as to be ridiculous! They don't have to start from scratch - they only have to open a book and consume its contents...
Now that you, vikdk, have finally adopted a more conciliatory and congenial tone in your ripostes and posts, may I explain to you what I meant by "context"?
I didn't mean it the way you interpreted it - not at all! I don't think "context" has to be provided in terms of "translation and explanations". I believe, "context" is the textual background of any given word that's embedded in a meaningful whole - a clause or a sentence, or even a chapter or a whole novel...
A sentence should be self-explanatory! Your teacher should not have to provide extra interpretational help to you that doesn't exist in the text in front of you!
Think how your students (no, obviously, the students here have to have studied English for several years: think of a middle-school student!) would understand the following sentence (produced orally, not presented in a visible form either in a book or on a TV screen):
"He had to walk so much his feet often hurt!"
Contextual thinking: why do his feet "hurt so much"?
a) because he had to "work" so much?
b) or because he had to "walk so much"?
To understand this sentence correctly, contextual thinking is essential; in fact the sentence in question is embedded in a whole paragraph that provides numerous hints about walking being the cause of some discomfort for his feet, so much so that the character in the story has to see a doctor.
Now, how high would you guess was the percentage of Chinese students who correctly interpreted the word "walk"?
Or, alternatively, how high, do you think, was the percentage of students hearing the wrong verb 'work'?
To tell you the truth borne out by hundreds of students of college or adult age (with at least 8 years of formal English study to their belt): roughly every 9 out of ten students misunderstand this sentence!
Poor grip on phonetics? Maybe! (Very probable even). But there is much more than that; it's the THINKING that has never been initialled. The thinking that automatically links the probabilities rather than jumping to the nearest equivalent (because of word-by-word translation while the dialogue with a foreigner is going on).
This experience also tells why most Chinese students can't get the punchline of any joke, no matter how simple your English vocabulary, and how slowly you speak to them!
If you want to understand a message, you must understand the whole text before you can understand individual words; our students focus too much on each word, never seeing the whole sentence as constituting a meaningful whole.
Our students simply haven't had their imagination developed! They try to move parts in appropriate boxes.
I am not saying your bilingual scaffolding-building teaching runs counter to any effort at triggering their imagination. But I do say that continued use of L 1 in the classroom by our Chinese colleagues effectively kills off any imagination our learners ever may have had!
And to answer you on that point about my own use of Mandarin in class: I am not sure my Mandarin would be up to the task! I use it more to create good vibes. And yes, sometimes you have to give ironclad instructions such as "say after me!" or "behave yourself!"
That is, if your assistant doesn't tell the kids those things! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| I am not saying your bilingual scaffolding-building teaching runs counter to any effort at triggering their imagination. But I do say that continued use of L 1 in the classroom by our Chinese colleagues effectively kills off any imagination our learners ever may have had! |
ohhh deary me are you reading this gregor - and indeed Steppenwolf we can see that getting the ballance right - and weaning the student of L1 depandancy is the skill of this game - and the gateway to communication - good to see you're learning from your ol' uncle Vik young stepp - because picking up and mastering techniques has an initial process concerned with training yourself to understand their practical applications and useages
And lets not stop here - another way to think about missionaries and all their good language learning is again to think about motivation - since motivation must be the number one most important factor with regard to language learning - regardless of what method is being used!! After all isn't method just a tool to make the process easier (for both teacher and student) - but a person can potentialy learn an L2 regardless of what me and the step - or indeed gregor - spout out as being the best method - if indeed they are motivated enough. Missionaries were of course incredibly motivated by christianity and speading the word into learning other languages - and on the subject of religous motivation - just think how Islam has spread Arabic since the holy words of the Koran are indeed only holy if they're read in Arabic - as echoing the Allah's words in the original script. If we could get our students to get so motivated and needy in their quest to learn English then no problem what method we use - but at the moment English aint that important - so end of that great idea. No - making English learning as much fun and as easy as possible is much more of a practical answer - otherwise methods that rely on boring, difficult and non-educational techniques may extinguish any small lights that are still glowing inside those little classroom heads - and hey presto you middle school and uni teachers will be receiving another batch of Zombies to warm up your seats.
Steppenwolf - missionaries - do us favour - get gregor to convert - he's already expressed in another thread how he ultimately enjoyed the suffering and difficulty he endured to learn Chinese in his chinese only learning environment - but problem is Gregor all dem kids out there aint you and using an L1 in the classroom opens up so many more possibilities about making that place more a fun place to be. So I'll rehash another post or two about my L1 scaffolding, to spread the message brother - Hallelujah
Last edited by vikdk on Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: The Use of Chinese in an ELT Classroom |
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Sorry to pop in on yor party here, but Gregor's my ol pal fella.  ..and the thread's heading is a real challenge to discussions for many educational institutions around the world.
Trying not to look at WHY Gregor's initial approach to this discussion came in the way it did, there are a few good points,
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the Chinese should NEVER come from the teacher. The students - especially little kids - should never know that the teacher can understand Chinese, and the TA should refuse to listen to or answer the student until the teacher has given permission for that one particular instance.
If you are lucky enough to have that situation, then I'd say that Chinese is OK in the classroom. But ONLY in that VERY controlled atmosphere, and as rarely as possible. It's supposed to be a full-immersion situation. |
Never say never I'd say to many, but in this case I must agree with the above quote.
In my opinion and from my experience, it is much easier to learn a new language has the RIGHT ENVIRONMENT been created in the classroom or around the learner. Having the learner depend on someone else or another language slows the learning process down. People around the world learn their mother toungue without any other interference of other languages, dictionaries etc. Pics, explanations and expectations from learners to fight their own self does what it needs to do. DO NOT DELUDE LEARNINGS OF SECOND LANGUAGES BY PROVIDING UNREASONABLE HELP.
How many times have you heard people saying, "If I go abroad, I will learn the language", "It's much easier that way, since I'll have the right environment". Why wouldn't we create that in our English classrooms?
If you speak two or three languages fluently and have learned them at later stages of your lives, you will understand better what this topic is talking about. Sorry, no offence to the ones that know only that one language.
Peace to Gregor, vikdk
and
cheers and beers to all ESLers around the world  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| People around the world learn their mother toungue without any other interference of other languages, dictionaries etc. Pics, explanations |
You can see why EF has (or have had) the creme de la creme of ESL employees when comments like this are made - even ol' steppenwolf will back me up on this one about the differences in L1 and L2 acquisition - how on earth can you equate learning an L2 in a classroom situation with the developmental processes which are activated during L1 acquisition - since L1 acquisition could well be described as the biological process of developing going hand in hand with a social need to communicate through which an interaction with your local environment is ochestrated!!! EG - if you can convince me there is anything connected with normal biological developement in an L2 classroom, or indeed a great social need for any student to have to interact within it (man I better talk in my English class today because I want to be fed and get my diapers changed!!!) - then I'll be putting ketchup on my ol' hat ready for a sumptious banquet
You know something EG there is such a great differnce between L1 and L2 aquisition that according to surveys older students usually learn to communicate in an L2 more quickly than younger students - but the younger the student starts, the greater the chances of fluency and good pronunciation if that student does eventualy learn to communicate through the L2 - I cant find the references to these studies at the moment, but if anyones interested I'll paste 'em up. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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S. Krashen, R. Scarcella, & M. Long (eds.), Child-Adult Differences in Second Language Acquisition, Newbury House
1. Adults proceed through the earlier stages of syntactic and morphological development faster than children (where age and exposure are held constant)
2. Older children acquire faster than younger Children (again, the early stages of syntactic and morphological development re time and exposure are held constant.
3. Acquirers who begin natural exposure to second languages during childhood generally achieve higher second language proficiency than those beginning as adults.
V.J. Cook (ed.) (1986), Experimental Approaches to Second Language Learning, Chapter 2
1. Older children are better than younger children at learning a second language.
2. Adults are better than children at learning a second language
3. Immigrants who start learning a second language younger end up better speakers than those who start older |
as a postscript to my last post here are the conclusions to those surveys I talked about - it's interesting to look at EG's quote again -
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| People around the world learn their mother toungue without any other interference of other languages, dictionaries etc. Pics, explanations |
since these results tend to suggest that one of the possibilities why older students can learn an L2 more quickly (at least in initial stages) - is because they can better utalise those dictionaries, pics, explanations etc. ect - all which could well be described as L2 scaffolding much of which will be very much connected to an L1 - so they indeed seem quite important to this discussion.
By the way EG - should a student also make his brain L2 only during lessons - because your linking L2 to L1 acquisition brings up this very absured idea . As a person who is fluent in two languages and trying tp acquire a fluency in his third - I know when you have the ability to dream in a L2 then sometimes it's difficult to look back to those days when you were grasping for simple mental translations for all that stuff you didn't quite understand - you know that unavoidable problem of always going back to your L1 to try and find a solution. But please remember the type of L2 internalisation we might have achieved takes time for many of us to master - and difficulties encountered during this stage of L2 learning motivates far more students to mentaly quit than those who are willing to take up the challenge - at least give the potential quiters a chance - don't deny them an L1 helping hand if they really need it |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
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| People around the world learn their mother toungue without any other interference of other languages, dictionaries etc. Pics, explanations |
You can see why EF has (or have had) the creme de la creme of ESL employees when comments like this are made... |
the creme de la creme of ESL forums with undeniably most impressive experience and qualifications has just made "comments"
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| ..if you can convince me .. |
no need to "convince" YOU..you've "convinced" YOURSELF
Peace to convinced
and
cheers and beers to all FTs in China |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:10 am Post subject: |
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[quote="vikdk"]
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You know something EG there is such a great differnce between L1 and L2 aquisition that according to surveys older students usually learn to communicate in an L2 more quickly than younger students - but the younger the student starts, the greater the chances of fluency and good pronunciation if that student does eventualy learn to communicate through the L2 - I cant find the references to these studies at the moment, but if anyones interested I'll paste 'em up. |
It's good to see that others are offering you some piece of tyheir mind too, vikdk! You have for a long time been talking to yourself, vikdk, not listening to what others have said.
Now you are comparing L 2 and L 1 learners - very interesting! Your trouble is that this dichotomy presided over the birth of the dysfunctional English language instruction in China. The Chinese already believe that their kids "know" Chinese so well they can rely on it to acquire any L 2. That's why their L 1 interferes with L 2 on a permanent basis. They react sluggishly to any English input. Don'tyou have to slow down your enunbciation? Don't you have to dumb down your expressions? Don't you go out of your western way in speaking English with Chinese?
You do not tell them to learn English differentoly, right? That is the prerogative of your Chinese colleagues who do not believe their own students should learn from a laowai how to learn English...
But here are a few observations: your own students will eventually go to primary school and be exposed tothe same rote-learning as others, and that will kill off their enthusiasm! Weren't you talking about how to "motivate" your students?
Any "scaffolding" you may have achieved in terms of giving them a skeletal understanding of abstract concepts in Chinese that they can flesh out with English words will collapse under the sheer weight of quantitative word acquisition through memorisation. Do you kknow that most students get a numerical goal set before them - say, 4000, 6000 or 8000 words in English they must master to pass exams? Words, not concepts, not phrases, not whole sentences...
They won't ever internalise the correct use of these words, and they will be stumped when they have to decipher English whether it's written or spoken.
OK, so far it's justmy personal objection; I am still willing to listen to you, bro! I concede your "scaffolding" a certain supporting function at certain levels - perhaps at primary schoollevel? - but I can't see how you can ground your kids in English this way!
And here is a more objective truism: Older students do not learn to communicate in an L 2 more quickly than younger ones!
I beg you to interview Chinese "older" students... the older they are the more Englisgh they have "learnt", and the more sluggish their responses tend to be! Please, this is an obvious problem anyone can see for themselves! And why? I tell you again: you cannot simultaneously translate and speak your own mind all the time. Do you know how long professional interpreters can serve the same customer? Normally a couple of hours - and then, they are exhausted! Why do you think ordinary Chinese have more mental stamina than professional interpreters? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: |
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What a spiffing post steppenwolf - your 10 years plus experience really has given you a rare insight into this game - but please a bit more explanation on some of your key points -
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| And here is a more objective truism: Older students do not learn to communicate in an L 2 more quickly than younger ones! |
Well ol' chap - info that challenges the findings of Krashen, and the other blokes I quoted. Really looking forward into hearing more of how you came to this conclusion - the controls you employed in your surveys and all that kind of baloney - otherwise we could stir up those bottom dwellers - the doubters - who could cast a fog of scientific doubt over your findings (objective truism = subjective belief). You know mumblings of how can you talk about student age - and totally ignore the different methods/teachers/schools your study students came from. after all that Krashen guy got over that problem by testing newly stateside arrived immigrants - and even though many variable factors such as personal ability/motivation etc etc came into his studies - at least he was able to use Zero English as a very important control - and was also able to use the same teacher/method on his experimental classes.
But then again steppenwolf If what you say is true about abilty you have encountered in difering age groups of Chinese students - then what your bloke on the street survey may need to find out is why those abilities may be different - and if there is clue in the better performance on one group of students to another due to differing pedagogical method - if you can identify this method then you could take students of different age-groups and (preferable like Krashens immigrant subjects - with zero English ability) - and see which age group makes the fastest progress - maybe you will find that younger Chinese students indeed can learn faster than older. But then again what you could have discovered is a symptom of the long-term effects of Chinese educational methods - the sustained effects of bad English teaching �too many hours in the classroom � young lives which are tortured by education � the dumbing-down of imaginative youth � the destruction of personal motivation. Yes I�m back to that old nutmeg motivation - because I'm pretty sure one of the biggest stumbling block for the average young child when presented with learning an L2 is � that unless that presentation becomes a period of enjoyment where joining in seems more of natural procedure �you know a joining in with the fun type experience - otherwise. maybe, they just can't see any point in learning it
so lets go to another crunch quote from your post -
| Quote: |
| Any "scaffolding" you may have achieved in terms of giving them a skeletal understanding of abstract concepts in Chinese that they can flesh out with English words will collapse under the sheer weight of quantitative word acquisition through memorisation. Do you kknow that most students get a numerical goal set before them - say, 4000, 6000 or 8000 words in English they must master to pass exams? Words, not concepts, not phrases, not whole sentences... |
Steppenwolf after 10 years in China - is your best advice for the creative FT to dumb-down his method to suite the local teaching conditions. An interesting point - which makes me think that having to teach here for over 10 years can't just be a challenge with regard to getting a decent wage - but also one where professional independance is so tested that the neccessary degree of job-satisfaction needed to keep on soldiering along is also under severe threat. 10 years, moving moving moving, 10 plus jobs - must get a tad tiring in the end.
Or maybe one of the secrets in this game is in utalising method which maybe effective - indeed ones that might have lasting effect in encouraging and building genuine English communication - regardless of the educational carnage meted out by the local systems.
Last edited by vikdk on Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Carissimo vikdk,
e buon appetito - mangiamo spaghetti alla bolognese, no e vero? You have been away from the window for a couple of days...did the water company cut the water supply?
I am digressing...
Yes, vikdk, we are finally seeing eye to eye! It's when you are talking about Krashen's immigrants compared to our classroom performers. This is like comparing apples to pineapples. And motivation is one reason, though only one.
But here is a general truism that you need not verify with Mr Krashen's help: the older one gets the harder it is to study a foreign language. Your mind is more set than it was when you were younger. It is set in the mould of its mother tongue. It cannot "think outside the box" easily enough.
Our students have English communications problems that I consider to be rather rare. The longer they have been exposed to Chinese English teaching the less flexible they are. The less they can digest. If you internalise Chinese concepts as a skeletal structure inside their thoughts at an early age, these hard bones will always stick into the soft tissues and flesh; ever wondered why Chinese adults with more than ten years of classroom English cannot automatically differentiate between the proper uses of 'he' and 'she'? IT's nothing but a conceptual difference, really! And easy to achieve...if motivated enough!
I haven't taught for ten years at the same school, vikdk. I am not disenchanted, disillusioned, frustrated. I just don't believe in the hullyballoo of "total immersion" (a favourite buzzword used by most Chinese 'educators') in a purely Chinese context. I think it is logically wrong to postulate the existence of a total immersion context (such as "English Corner") because the psychological factors that facilitate the use of English simply are absent. Ambition? Chinese aqre not ambitious! Personal industry? They don't work on their own - ever seen the mediocre results of them doing homework? Speaking their personal minds? Impossible - everything has to be learnt "from a book". Example: a 13-year old boy tells me he was reprimanded by his Chinese English teachers for answering questions in a personal way: "How old are you?" "I am 13 years old!" Teacher: Wrong! You must say 'I am 10 years old...!" I am not making this up, boy - he told me he had to memorise his every answer to every question, and only the bookish answers were acceptable... "Are you a girl"? "Yes, I am a girl!" even if you are that boy...
Don't you see how the imagination of our brightest learners gets stifled by the maniacal pursuit of examination excellence?
I give your approach 50 percent chance of success on the condition that you first remove the iron rule that says students have to memorise to pass exams! Yes, teachers here teach to exams, and students learn to pass exams, not to actually learn anything. What motivation can these poor kids develop if there only are one right answer and hundreds of wrong answers in any test?
And maybe English should be an elective subject - that would eliminate all the chaff that now flocks to our classrooms in expectation of that Mannah that's falling down from Heaven! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| the older one gets the harder it is to study a foreign language. Your mind is more set than it was when you were younger. It is set in the mould of its mother tongue. It cannot "think outside the box" easily enough. |
Where do you get this info???? Problems with age - you talking about senility.
Please tell me how 7 year olds have the ability to think out of their box? In Scandinavia small immigrant children are offered L1 (mother tongue) lessons otherwise the L2 (adopted language) often takes over - even if they live in an a family that uses it's L1 as the language of the house and are housed in a so-called immigrant "ghetto"!!! In these places the kids start to talk a strange L1/L2 mix (due to influences of the dominant national culture, which always finds its way through the thickest ghetto walls). Surely according to your box theory small children would be very adept at changing from one language to another - Steppenwolf why doesn't this happen in practice - and why do older teenagers and adults seem to be able to retain their L1 without any obstruction from the new L2 - a new type of box  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
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When teaching English as an L2 it's very important not to fall into the age trap, and come out with blanket statements such as -
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| the older one gets the harder it is to study a foreign language. Your mind is more set than it was when you were younger. It is set in the mould of its mother tongue. It cannot "think outside the box" easily enough. |
and its not just me that thinks that - read this statement by Lisa Chipongian
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The Myth of Missed Opportunities
A popular misconception regarding second-language learning is that there is a window, or critical period, for learning a second language that shuts down around the onset of puberty. In his article, "Is There a 'Child Advantage' in Learning Foreign Languages?" Brad Marshall points out the harm this misconception can cause. Adults may become doubtful of their ability to learn a new language. Their teachers may become skeptical too, tending to "plod through their classes feeling there is little hope of success." When it comes to learning a foreign language, many believe that the adult brain is in "a state of shutdown" relative to the child's "neurological state of readiness." |
to read the whole article go to -
http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=fa/critical-period
there seems pro and cons, in regard to L2 acquisition, with both age and youth - but to make blanket statements that youth have it easier to learn a second language - just doesn't seem to work out - and lots of you old foggies who have learnt mandarin during your stay seem to be living proof of that!!!
Just remember those small kids are of course naturals when learning an L1 - but we're teaching English as a second language - as in bilingualism - two languages being able to be used independantly of each other. Well teaching small kids to do that - as far my experiences go - is kinda difficult - especially when working under the kind of conditions, which are so effected by local teaching method |
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