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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Right, that's why I offered it as an example of a word that was imported into English instead of translated. |
Hmm...yes but the imported word perforce lacks the currency it would otherwise have in the original language. No English speaker understands Zeitgeist to be what a German would understand it to be, likewise French bon vivant....anyway...interesting discussion...
BTW, from the things you right you sound pretty damn fluent and masterful in Japanese; are you? |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
Hmm...yes but the imported word perforce lacks the currency it would otherwise have in the original language. No English speaker understands Zeitgeist to be what a German would understand it to be, likewise French bon vivant.... |
It's true that a German person will probably have a different sense of the word zeitgeist, but an English speakers can learn what it means in detail. It's no so different than a child (or adult for that matter) learning a totally new word in their own language.
| Quote: |
| BTW, from the things you right you sound pretty damn fluent and masterful in Japanese; are you? |
That's a hard question to answer. What are your definitions of those terms? Japanese is a never ending learning experience, so I still feel like I have a long way to go.... |
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The Dog Ate My Keitai
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 67
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:17 am Post subject: |
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My favorite German loanword has no direct English translation either (hence the reason it's a LOAN word):
Schadenfreude
(n) delight in another person's misfortune
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| kdynamic wrote: |
| Right, that's why I offered it as an example of a word that was imported into English instead of translated. |
Hmm...yes but the imported word perforce lacks the currency it would otherwise have in the original language. No English speaker understands Zeitgeist to be what a German would understand it to be, likewise French bon vivant....anyway...interesting discussion...
BTW, from the things you write you sound pretty damn fluent and masterful in Japanese; are you? |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Deicide wrote: |
Hmm...yes but the imported word perforce lacks the currency it would otherwise have in the original language. No English speaker understands Zeitgeist to be what a German would understand it to be, likewise French bon vivant.... |
It's true that a German person will probably have a different sense of the word zeitgeist, but an English speakers can learn what it means in detail. It's no so different than a child (or adult for that matter) learning a totally new word in their own language.
| Quote: |
| BTW, from the things you right you sound pretty damn fluent and masterful in Japanese; are you? |
That's a hard question to answer. What are your definitions of those terms? Japanese is a never ending learning experience, so I still feel like I have a long way to go.... |
I think every language, including the mother tongue is a never ending learning process. The further removed it is from the mother tongue, the longer the process... |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, japanese is about as far from English as it gets, which is what causes all these tricky issues when it comes to translation. The challenge is what attracted me to it in the first place though, and I enjoy puzzling out translations.  |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Yeah, japanese is about as far from English as it gets, which is what causes all these tricky issues when it comes to translation. The challenge is what attracted me to it in the first place though, and I enjoy puzzling out translations. |
So you are fluent? How are your Kanji? |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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[shrug] What is fluent? I am taking the level 1 test next month and I think I might pass, but that test is hardly a goog guage. My job is 100% Japanese all day long, as is most of my social life, and I don't really have any communication problems. I can read most things. I write a regular column for the local paper in Japanese. But my reading a writing is weak compared to my speaking and listening, which I think are my strenths. I talk and listen at native speed. I can crack jokes and get the ones other people make. I understand 95% of TV. Most people think I am Japanese on the phone (which leads to much confusion when I end up giving my name).
On the other hand, I know I still have a long, long, long way to go before I near the level of some people I have met who are seriously good. I have only been studying Japanese for 5 years after all. I think I am my own harshest critic... Does that answer your question? |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
[shrug] What is fluent? I am taking the level 1 test next month and I think I might pass, but that test is hardly a goog guage. My job is 100% Japanese all day long, as is most of my social life, and I don't really have any communication problems. I can read most things. I write a regular column for the local paper in Japanese. But my reading a writing is weak compared to my speaking and listening, which I think are my strenths. I talk and listen at native speed. I can crack jokes and get the ones other people make. I understand 95% of TV. Most people think I am Japanese on the phone (which leads to much confusion when I end up giving my name).
On the other hand, I know I still have a long, long, long way to go before I near the level of some people I have met who are seriously good. I have only been studying Japanese for 5 years after all. I think I am my own harshest critic... Does that answer your question? |
How old are you? I assume then that you have mastered the 2000 plus basic kanji? You obviously are not an English teacher, which is big plus as I don't think that it is possible to gain that level of fluency in a language without constant exposure (I know from personal exeperience). This is why I am genuinely considering not going to Japan. As an English teacher my exposure would be minimal and as someone who is quite old in linguistic terms (29) I would be at a distinct disadvantage. Furthermore as pretty as Hanja or Kanji are I think they are ultimately a detriment to a language and alphabets are vastly superior. The problem is that is takes so many years (no matter what the talent) to truly master a foreign tongue that mastering 2 of them to near native level by middle age is quite an accomplishment in itself. Having studied manu European languages for many years I may just be biased. Who knows...but I do know that unless I were to get a job like yours, mastering Japanese would remain an eternal dream...my thoughts... |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
How old are you? |
22
| Quote: |
| I assume then that you have mastered the 2000 plus basic kanji? |
Not all of them, and not every aspect of each one I pretty much know. I am not wired to be a kanji freak (which many people are, and you need to be in order to really "master" kanji). But enough to read most anything.
| Quote: |
| You obviously are not an English teacher, which is big plus as I don't think that it is possible to gain that level of fluency in a language without constant exposure (I know from personal exeperience). |
Nope. not a teacher. Yes, everyday exposure does help me improve. But only because I had a strong base from learning as a student. Learning Japanese requires both exposure and lots of hours clocked seriously studying. That's hard to do while working full time, especially if you're starting at a level where you can't just go out and make friends to speak Japanese with from day one.
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| This is why I am genuinely considering not going to Japan. As an English teacher my exposure would be minimal and as someone who is quite old in linguistic terms (29) I would be at a distinct disadvantage. |
Your saying you would basically only come to learn the langauge? why not come as a student then, if thats what you want to do?
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| Furthermore as pretty as Hanja or Kanji are I think they are ultimately a detriment to a language and alphabets are vastly superior. |
I disagree. Each system has strengths and weaknesses. It's hard to appreciate the strengths of the kanji system before you get to a level where you can use them fluently. Once you do though, doors you never knew existed start opening linguistically. It's pretty cool. Don't knock it til you try it.
| Quote: |
| The problem is that is takes so many years (no matter what the talent) to truly master a foreign tongue that mastering 2 of them to near native level by middle age is quite an accomplishment in itself. Having studied manu European languages for many years I may just be biased. |
Mastering a language is definitely a long term project. Especially one very different from your native langauge. But you don't need to master a language to get conversational and have fun communicating in it. With serious study, you can get conversational in Japanese in 3 or 4 years. Or even less if you do a super intensive program and really commit.
| Quote: |
| Who knows...but I do know that unless I were to get a job like yours, mastering Japanese would remain an eternal dream...my thoughts... |
If you want to master Japanese, just make it a priority and go for it. It's a complex and mostly usless (outside Japan) langauge, but at the same time is quite interesting, and of course opens doors in Japan. But if you want to do it, I would suggest studying full time for at least a year in order to hit the ground running. The trick with a job like mine is you have to have the Japanese ability to get hired, not the other way around.... |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Deicide wrote: |
How old are you? |
22
| Quote: |
| I assume then that you have mastered the 2000 plus basic kanji? |
Not all of them, and not every aspect of each one I pretty much know. I am not wired to be a kanji freak (which many people are, and you need to be in order to really "master" kanji). But enough to read most anything.
| Quote: |
| You obviously are not an English teacher, which is big plus as I don't think that it is possible to gain that level of fluency in a language without constant exposure (I know from personal exeperience). |
Nope. not a teacher. Yes, everyday exposure does help me improve. But only because I had a strong base from learning as a student. Learning Japanese requires both exposure and lots of hours clocked seriously studying. That's hard to do while working full time, especially if you're starting at a level where you can't just go out and make friends to speak Japanese with from day one.
| Quote: |
| This is why I am genuinely considering not going to Japan. As an English teacher my exposure would be minimal and as someone who is quite old in linguistic terms (29) I would be at a distinct disadvantage. |
Your saying you would basically only come to learn the langauge? why not come as a student then, if thats what you want to do?
| Quote: |
| Furthermore as pretty as Hanja or Kanji are I think they are ultimately a detriment to a language and alphabets are vastly superior. |
I disagree. Each system has strengths and weaknesses. It's hard to appreciate the strengths of the kanji system before you get to a level where you can use them fluently. Once you do though, doors you never knew existed start opening linguistically. It's pretty cool. Don't knock it til you try it.
| Quote: |
| The problem is that is takes so many years (no matter what the talent) to truly master a foreign tongue that mastering 2 of them to near native level by middle age is quite an accomplishment in itself. Having studied manu European languages for many years I may just be biased. |
Mastering a language is definitely a long term project. Especially one very different from your native langauge. But you don't need to master a language to get conversational and have fun communicating in it. With serious study, you can get conversational in Japanese in 3 or 4 years. Or even less if you do a super intensive program and really commit.
| Quote: |
| Who knows...but I do know that unless I were to get a job like yours, mastering Japanese would remain an eternal dream...my thoughts... |
If you want to master Japanese, just make it a priority and go for it. It's a complex and mostly usless (outside Japan) langauge, but at the same time is quite interesting, and of course opens doors in Japan. But if you want to do it, I would suggest studying full time for at least a year in order to hit the ground running. The trick with a job like mine is you have to have the Japanese ability to get hired, not the other way around.... |
Wow you are indeed young...and to answer most of the questions...why I don't...money, money and money...my intellectual interests remain mostly European, which is of course a deterrent as well... |
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