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[Guy Courchesne]

I would agree that a full manual recount should be automatic if a vote is at less than 1% difference. However, to allow any and every group access to recount after recount can't be the answer either. IFE needs to be impartial and ruled by clear laws, away from political influence from any side. That way, the process can't be hijacked by any group, be they a small group of elites or a minority out of the south.

Nothing has happened at the legislative level because the parties have rarely tried to build consensus. PAN even broke from Fox early in the administration...that set the tone for constant partisan politics, with no one willing to be seen as allying themselves with any other party.

PRD can do a lot of work in Congress as a strong opposition. Learning the give and take of democracy will help them temper the excesses of both the larger Congressional party and of their own points of view. As it turns out, PRI holds all the card in this respect. PRI is acting very wisely in keeping quiet while all this goes on around them. They stand to come out above the fray.

[delacosta]

[Guy Courchesne]

I don't see the need to insult the millions of hard-working Mexicans of every class and stripe that voted against AMLO. They believe in a far more moderate way of doing things...of progress. Many believe that hard work and education by the individual is the answer...not something promised from high above.

Calderon certainly doesn't offer much by way of solutions either. But, this was an election where one picked between several evils. Mexicans elected the most stable they could, in PRI and PAN. They didn't buy into what AMLO's selling.

More reading

[delacosta]

Hardly my intention.
In a fair election of course everyone is entitled to vote for whoever. What is being questioned here is whether these elections were clean. THere is ample evidence that they weren't. TO be told repeatedly that they were clean because we said so and no you can't count the ballots and yes well actaully no the elections weren't clean laws were broken all over the place but you know what-so what let's just get on with things...We've broken every rule in the book but now let's all follow the rules.

[Guy Courchesne]

A bit more reading on the subject.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15458226.htm Good points, though I don't agree with all and usually dislike the author.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12978 Not that you can realy on polls too much but this one confirms what I've been hearing around here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_general_election_2006_controversies The good people at wiki have a running log of the whole affair.

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/international/ticker/detail/Tight_Mexico_election_could_all_come_down_to_rain.html?siteSect=143&sid=6861689&cKey=1151714304000%20 and a reminder of where the candidates stood before the election...neck and neck, just as the election turned out.

Of course there was fraud in the election. Everyone engages in it. I watched taxi drivers in Acapulco have their livelihoods threatened if they failed to vote and advertise for PRD's Zerrefino for Governor. I don't think any Mexican election will ever be Spic n Span, but when the final count matches all the pre-vote polling and the exit polling, from numerous varied sources, I have to wonder where this 'massive' fraud is? Is it sitting in Los Pinos or is it camped out in the Zocalo?

[ls650]

I'm pretty much a "down the middle" centrist, and am not particularly enthralled with either Calderon or AMLO. I'm not taking sides in this dispute.

But here's the thing: AMLO lost. Now, maybe he was cheated, maybe not. It might be that AMLO should have won, maybe not. Either way, he did lose.

Take a look at Gore and Bush in the US. Once Gore was told by the courts that he'd lost, he moved on. Over the last six years he's been working to set himself up as the choice America should have made. It wouldn't surprise me to see Gore run - and win - in 2008. Even if he doesn't run, I think it's clear that history will show him in a better light than Bush.

AMLO could have done the same. He could have set himself up as a strong, reasonable, and intelligent opposition leader - but instead he's made himself look like a sore loser and a cry baby.

[Guy Courchesne]

Here's a starting point to see exactly who is on the TRIFE panel of judges. They did vote unanimously to declare Calderon president. They come from a variety of backgrounds and have a long track record of making the tough decisions, against all parties, fairly.

http://www.mexidata.info/id1021.html

Odd to hear AMLO say the equivalent 'to hell with your institutions' when they served the PRD in the past and the same members were confirmed in 1996 by all parties, including the PRD.

[delacosta]

Wow, citing the Miami Herald as a news source. Was the writer one of the dozen reporters who just got fired for being on the US government's payroll?
I'm sure you could find some supporting arguments here as well:
http://www.rightwingnews.com/ just run a search on Dick Morris.

Here's a link to a cartoon from today's Universal that expresses how millions of Mexicans feel: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/wcarton6758.html [/img]

[MELEE]

I was under the impression that the Universal was owned by the Miami Harold. Is it not? I know one Mexico City paper is, anyone know which it is?

[Guy Courchesne]

Actually, I cited Andres Oppenheimer, and not the Herald. I don't think he was fired for being on a government payroll, but you could always ask him. [email protected]

Interesting thought though about a US government payroll. Do you think they've had a hand in this massive fraud? How do you think it was done, or is being done?

[delacosta]

[quote]Interesting thought though about a US government payroll. Do you think they've had a hand in this massive fraud? How do you think it was done, or is being done?[/quo

Guy, I know you're a smart , informed guy. I don't quite understand how you could ask such a question, unless you're just trying to get my goat...

Remember FOx's words: "la democracia en M�xico es de, para y por los empresarios".

The US government is prepared to invade countries to ensure business as usual. Election fraud is much cheaper.

ANd that's it for me. Over and out.

[Guy Courchesne]

Don't go...I'm not trying to get your goat.

What I'd like are answers. I simply don't buy into hype or assumption from any side, and right now it seems to me that the (so far) losing side of this election is laying blame in every direction but one.

It's too easy to say that the US government had a hand in this election. It's obvious to state simply the it is in the US corporate and perhaps US government's interest that Calderon win the election. But that's not saying they had a hand in the outcome. Did they buy votes? Did they make ballots and boxes disappear? Did they do anything actively (or passively if you like) that we can say 'yes, the US government had a hand in election'?

What is it? Is the US prepared to invade Mexico to ensure business as usual? That, I'm sure applies to Iraq. Did they fund Calderon? Where's the proof? Did Chavez or Cuba fund AMLO? Dunno...where's the proof?

[Guy Courchesne]

Any thoughts on AMLO''s coronation today?

[MikeySaid]

[thelmadatter]

I was really hoping it would be a wash... with few people in attendance. But having had a full Zocalo, watch AMLO feel more emboldened and try something "dramatic" on Dec 1. Had it been a bust, this whole mess could have been over.