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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Zzonk Miles posted
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| ...or being reprimanded by a teacher for being "disruptive." |
Or sleep, but I have some students who don't mind being disruptive, though everyone in the class pays the price (including me  ), some more than others (especially the remedial students, but hey, I get paid again to teach them again  , but maybe not enough  ). |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Don't fret. Here in Hong Kong I have Form 4 students who have been learning English for decade, and cannot even say their class number. That is, they cannot count to 15, or whatever their number is. How is it possible to attend thousands of hours of English classes, and do countless hours of homework and not be able to speak a word? I attended a single class of Cantonese, and can count to 100 no problems. I have to translate some of my students' class numbers into English after they tell me in Cantonese. Ridiculous.
There is something about Asia you have to learn (I know it's a broad generalisation). Learning is not about interest or passion. It's for economic and social advancement, and has been since East Asian culture emerged from pre-modern China. When students cannot see economic or social advancement, there is no motivation or interest, and it becomes robot learning. Many learn almost nothing despite years of "study" e'g some of my students here in Hong Kong. |
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gallery79
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
Gallery79 posted
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| most high school level students know more english grammar than most uni grads from english speaking countries. |
Glenski posted in response
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| Not sure I'd agree with that either. Having taught high school and university students in Japan, and having come from a native English speaking country, well, I don't see the above statement. Japanese students are taught basic grammar in junior high, slightly more advances stuff in senior high,but by the time they are in senior high, what they are taught is how to dissect and translate sentences just to pass the college entrance exams, like Mark intimated. Do they actually LEARN the grammar? Heck, no. One look at their compositions and essay answers on exams will tell you that one hands down. |
I agree with Glenski; knowing versus comprehending and being able to use it are two very different things. |
Yep, sorry, i used the word 'know,' which is a bit all too encompassing. i know. what i meant, though i didn't present it clear enough, is that japanese high school students memorize all the english grammar points and can tell you (in japanese) how it's used. can they actually use this grammar when producing anything through speech or writing? hahaha i don't think so. it's like going into calculus and memorizing all the formulas and equations, but never learning how to put them into play. of course mathematics (at least the lower levels) is much simpler to perform, after memorizing the rules, than a language is. i'm pretty sure most uni grads from english speaking countries couldn't tell you the difference between an open conditional and a subjunctive, or what an adverbial phrasal is, or even an indefinite article. they can definitely use them all though. but that's what i'm saying, it's not necessary to know what these terms are to use a language, but, unfortunately, that tends to be a lot of what the japanese public school system focuses on. at least, that's what it focused on 3 years ago.
btw, i can smell it coming now, but this post in no way was intended to spark any grammar debate. that's just an ugly path to follow on a forum. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| gallery79 wrote: |
| gaijinalways wrote: |
Gallery79 posted
| Quote: |
| most high school level students know more english grammar than most uni grads from english speaking countries. |
Glenski posted in response
| Quote: |
| Not sure I'd agree with that either. Having taught high school and university students in Japan, and having come from a native English speaking country, well, I don't see the above statement. Japanese students are taught basic grammar in junior high, slightly more advances stuff in senior high,but by the time they are in senior high, what they are taught is how to dissect and translate sentences just to pass the college entrance exams, like Mark intimated. Do they actually LEARN the grammar? Heck, no. One look at their compositions and essay answers on exams will tell you that one hands down. |
I agree with Glenski; knowing versus comprehending and being able to use it are two very different things. |
Yep, sorry, i used the word 'know,' which is a bit all too encompassing. i know. what i meant, though i didn't present it clear enough, is that japanese high school students memorize all the english grammar points and can tell you (in japanese) how it's used. can they actually use this grammar when producing anything through speech or writing? hahaha i don't think so. it's like going into calculus and memorizing all the formulas and equations, but never learning how to put them into play. of course mathematics (at least the lower levels) is much simpler to perform, after memorizing the rules, than a language is. i'm pretty sure most uni grads from english speaking countries couldn't tell you the difference between an open conditional and a subjunctive, or what an adverbial phrasal is, or even an indefinite article. they can definitely use them all though. but that's what i'm saying, it's not necessary to know what these terms are to use a language, but, unfortunately, that tends to be a lot of what the japanese public school system focuses on. at least, that's what it focused on 3 years ago.
btw, i can smell it coming now, but this post in no way was intended to spark any grammar debate. that's just an ugly path to follow on a forum. |
I don't think anyone will disagree with you. If you want to learn a language, I definitely think it's a good idea to get an idea of the basic linguistics of that language, but other than that you just have to learn through exposure.
A detailed academic knowledge of the grammar of a foreign language will not help you very much when it comes to using that foreign language.
I would draw your attention comment to a comment the new education minister made, where he said something like "Japanese is the basis of all intellectual activities". I suspect that this sort of attitude is why the system is structured the way it is. Japanese students try to learn to understand English through Japanese, rather than directly. It's an impossible task, of course, but they keep trying.
And that, I think, brings up another point. I can't understand why Japan wastes all this time and money on English education. What are the perceived benefits? I read that Japan spends 5 trillion yen annually on English education. Think of how much that could buy. Think of the probably several thousand hours students spend on English classes and homework during their academic careers. And for what?
The end result is that practically no one develops a usable command of English. Those that do almost invariably have lived abroad as exchange students. It blows my mind that a country could spend this much time and money on something that generates virtually no useful results. They'd be just as well off to cancel all the English classes and set fire to a giant 5 trillion yen pile of money. Of course, then the English teachers would be out of work..... |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Horizontal Hero wrote: |
Don't fret. Here in Hong Kong I have Form 4 students who have been learning English for decade, and cannot even say their class number. That is, they cannot count to 15, or whatever their number is. How is it possible to attend thousands of hours of English classes, and do countless hours of homework and not be able to speak a word? I attended a single class of Cantonese, and can count to 100 no problems. I have to translate some of my students' class numbers into English after they tell me in Cantonese. Ridiculous.
There is something about Asia you have to learn (I know it's a broad generalisation). Learning is not about interest or passion. It's for economic and social advancement, and has been since East Asian culture emerged from pre-modern China. When students cannot see economic or social advancement, there is no motivation or interest, and it becomes robot learning. Many learn almost nothing despite years of "study" e'g some of my students here in Hong Kong. |
Wow, that's amazing. I'd read that the English level in HK was rapidly decreasing, but I had no idea it was that bad. Are these students considered average or below average? I'm assuming they're the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.
I would also argue that the "learning for economic/social advancement" thing is not an East Asian trait. That's most people's approach to education, Westerners included. A lot of folks choose their degree program based on the salaries that graduates are projected to get. Not everyone does this, of course, but many do.
I would argue that the main problem is that students are passed even if they don't learn anything. Your students who can't count after a decade have presumably passed all of their English classes over the 10 years. It's the same thing in Japan. I've got students who have been studying English for 6 years and are incapable of asking questions like "Where do you live?" or "What did you do on Saturday?". It's utterly astounding. |
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ironopolis
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Horizontal Hero wrote: |
Don't fret. Here in Hong Kong I have Form 4 students who have been learning English for decade, and cannot even say their class number. That is, they cannot count to 15, or whatever their number is. How is it possible to attend thousands of hours of English classes, and do countless hours of homework and not be able to speak a word? I attended a single class of Cantonese, and can count to 100 no problems. I have to translate some of my students' class numbers into English after they tell me in Cantonese. Ridiculous.
There is something about Asia you have to learn (I know it's a broad generalisation). Learning is not about interest or passion. It's for economic and social advancement, and has been since East Asian culture emerged from pre-modern China. When students cannot see economic or social advancement, there is no motivation or interest, and it becomes robot learning. Many learn almost nothing despite years of "study" e'g some of my students here in Hong Kong. |
What you describe is very similar to the situation I recall as a teacher of foreign languages in the UK school system. I remember students who'd done 6 years of secondary school French or German, who couldn't even answer if asked what their name was. The economic advancement argument is also not unique to East Asia - I had plenty of kids in England who would openly moan, "what's the point of me learning German, cos I'm never going to need it?"
I think we have to always keep in mind that none of our nationalities is particularly renowned for ability or even enthusiasm with foreign languages either, and I'm sure all our countries' classrooms would have similar students.
Incidentally, I don't doubt what you said about your students in HK, but when I was there as a tourist a month ago, I never once had a problem anywhere using English. I came across some whose English clearly wasn't so good, but they had enough to deal with the situation. I wouldn't have been able to say that about any of the other East Asian countries I've been to. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| ironopolis wrote: |
| Horizontal Hero wrote: |
Don't fret. Here in Hong Kong I have Form 4 students who have been learning English for decade, and cannot even say their class number. That is, they cannot count to 15, or whatever their number is. How is it possible to attend thousands of hours of English classes, and do countless hours of homework and not be able to speak a word? I attended a single class of Cantonese, and can count to 100 no problems. I have to translate some of my students' class numbers into English after they tell me in Cantonese. Ridiculous.
There is something about Asia you have to learn (I know it's a broad generalisation). Learning is not about interest or passion. It's for economic and social advancement, and has been since East Asian culture emerged from pre-modern China. When students cannot see economic or social advancement, there is no motivation or interest, and it becomes robot learning. Many learn almost nothing despite years of "study" e'g some of my students here in Hong Kong. |
What you describe is very similar to the situation I recall as a teacher of foreign languages in the UK school system. I remember students who'd done 6 years of secondary school French or German, who couldn't even answer if asked what their name was. The economic advancement argument is also not unique to East Asia - I had plenty of kids in England who would openly moan, "what's the point of me learning German, cos I'm never going to need it?"
I think we have to always keep in mind that none of our nationalities is particularly renowned for ability or even enthusiasm with foreign languages either, and I'm sure all our countries' classrooms would have similar students.
Incidentally, I don't doubt what you said about your students in HK, but when I was there as a tourist a month ago, I never once had a problem anywhere using English. I came across some whose English clearly wasn't so good, but they had enough to deal with the situation. I wouldn't have been able to say that about any of the other East Asian countries I've been to. |
I don't know specifically about the UK, but it seems to me that by and large the English-speaking countries don't invest much time or money in foreign language study. There is no expectation that the students will really learn the language and it's seen as just a multi-cultural experience. A high degree of competence in a foreign language is not a requirement to enter university.
This is a bit of a generalization, of course, but back home I remember foreign language learning being viewed as a kind of exotic hobby. Or, people studied the language(s) of their ancestors.
I think that many of us can really relate to Japanese students in this respect. And I should make clear that I don't blame the students at all. Whatever degree of interest they might have, the system surely beats it out of them. |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
You'd have to define atrocious for me. Most of the long term foreigners I know speak passable Japanese, some quite fluent. Some of them studied it in university and sometimes high school before coming here, so of course it was easier than myself who studied Chinese and French. I would say most of the foreigners have a better chance of communicating in Japanese than the average Japanese does in English. Now if you get to writing, that might be another story..  |
Of course, not everyone falls in the 'atrocious' category. However, I've met more than my share of long-term ex-pats here who I've thought must have made a deliberate effort not to learn any Japanese. Two quick examples:
Ex-pat A. Similar to Horizontal Hero's example above. Over 10 years in Japan. Not able to count in Japanese. No, I don't mean the various ways to count ordinal numbers or different counters for different nouns. I mean one through ten. Atrocious. Should be punched in the face every single time he asks someone to translate for him.
Ex-pat B. Over 20 years in Japan. Read that number again: 20. Does not understand anything beyond the simplest greetings. Atrocious. Should be taken out and shot.
There are more, but I'll let these two shining examples serve for now. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| what i meant, though i didn't present it clear enough, is that japanese high school students memorize all the english grammar points and can tell you (in japanese) how it's used. |
I beg to differ. Sorry, but that has not been the case for my own HS and university students, nor any that my friends have taught.
In fact, they have problems with their own Japanese grammar, according to my many Japanese HS teachers! |
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Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
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| what i meant, though i didn't present it clear enough, is that japanese high school students memorize all the english grammar points and can tell you (in japanese) how it's used. |
I beg to differ. Sorry, but that has not been the case for my own HS and university students, nor any that my friends have taught.
In fact, they have problems with their own Japanese grammar, according to my many Japanese HS teachers! |
Yeah, and the solution that's being considered is to have them spend more time studying Japanese.
Nobody in Japan involved in educational planning seems to want to discuss the fact that the country's antiquated education system is way out of line with today's family values and societal values. |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
| Horizontal Hero wrote: |
Don't fret. Here in Hong Kong I have Form 4 students who have been learning English for decade, and cannot even say their class number. That is, they cannot count to 15, or whatever their number is. How is it possible to attend thousands of hours of English classes, and do countless hours of homework and not be able to speak a word? I attended a single class of Cantonese, and can count to 100 no problems. I have to translate some of my students' class numbers into English after they tell me in Cantonese. Ridiculous.
There is something about Asia you have to learn (I know it's a broad generalisation). Learning is not about interest or passion. It's for economic and social advancement, and has been since East Asian culture emerged from pre-modern China. When students cannot see economic or social advancement, there is no motivation or interest, and it becomes robot learning. Many learn almost nothing despite years of "study" e'g some of my students here in Hong Kong. |
Wow, that's amazing. I'd read that the English level in HK was rapidly decreasing, but I had no idea it was that bad. Are these students considered average or below average? I'm assuming they're the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.
I would also argue that the "learning for economic/social advancement" thing is not an East Asian trait. That's most people's approach to education, Westerners included. A lot of folks choose their degree program based on the salaries that graduates are projected to get. Not everyone does this, of course, but many do. |
Yep, they are the werst a thu werst. I teach in the New Territories of HK - i.e. the sticks, the boonies, or whatever term you call it. It's high-rises as far as the eye can see, but it's the burbs. And yes, these are the worst of my students, of course. Some are very good.
However I still cannot understand how it is even cognitively possible to attend a decade of English classes and not be able to speak a word. |
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Symphany
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| I believe that an ineffective method of teaching is to blame. There is a similar problem in Canada, where learning French is mandatory, and is taught through all the levels beginning with elementary school. Most Anglophones (Native English speakers) have to struggle to carry out a conversation in French. The two exceptions are ; Anglophones who have taken part in a French immersion program -- a seperate school curriculum where students are taught all of their subjects in French, the other - Anglophones who have studied in a French speaking Canadian city or France. |
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