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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I totally agree with no-exit - after I wrote my little remark on Clark's concept of FT self-sufficiency could also be applied to finding a job - and how we can do that ourselves, a process that cuts down on that considerable risk of being ripped-off by an anonymous middle man (which by the way is an issue that, I would think, has great relevance to to many readers of this forum - after all its something anybody involved in this business should care about) - then Clark suddenly changed his whole mind and for some mysterious reason decided that in this area FT's should be reliant on recruiters - Clark deary me - follow no-exits good advice - you realy should stick to forum topics  .
But anyways - luckily - the resultant discussion then blossomed out into something far more interesting than the OP's rather lack-luster first post - after all any FT who has been here a year or so should be able to figure out how to handle their own visa problems - what's so exciting about that  |
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erinyes
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 272
Location: GuangDong, GaoZhou
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
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| but I just can't see someone (eg an English teacher) here having enough time to wade through all the crappy letters of application one gets when one puts an ad for a teacher up online. |
isn't that how a responsible employer obtains a good worker? If they haven't even the resources to advertise and check applications then warning signals should be sounding - no wonder these schools can't be bothered to sort out visa issues. Therefore schools that have to rely on a recruiter could be viewed in light of not being "up to it" with regard to the job of coping with the special demands of an FT. |
Sorry - how is wading through hundreds of resumes, answering bunches of questions from people who may or may not be really interested, and doing all the paper-work involved with getting a visa any comparison to dealing with the day to day problems of FTs??? Which usually includes no more than requests like "I am out of water" and messages like "Hey the schedule has changed".
No. No teacher here has the kind of free time required to do the hiring directly through advertising on the net.
Even if my school does find a teacher by themselves they still use an agent located in Hangzhou to complete the paperwork for them.
I like the recruiter that got me the job here. She makes mistakes and sugar coats things, but she places the teacher, takes her 4000 and then has nothing more to do with it. If I ever come back to China (going home in 3 weeks YAY) then I'll email her first. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| erinyes wrote: |
| I like the recruiter that got me the job here. She makes mistakes and sugar coats things, but she places the teacher, takes her 4000 and then has nothing more to do with it. If I ever come back to China (going home in 3 weeks YAY) then I'll email her first. |
That�s interesting and just goes to show that we all have different expectations which further calls into question any generalizations about the value of recruiters.
Most people would speak badly of a recruiter that disappeared after collecting their fee based upon the belief that they should be around to help out with problems.
It is interesting to hear another opinion though and I am sure that you are not alone in preferring that the agent do their job and then extricate themselves from the relationship allowing you to deal with the school directly. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Erinyes, short listing from a pile of resumes is simple. People who can't write decent English, are un or under qualified or who don't meet the J and P specifications get deleted. This eliminates 80-90 %!
The reason FAO staff try to avoid this task is:
1] Too much work.
2] Their English skills aren't up to it.
3] They'd rather be drinking tea, gossiping, watching movies, playing games........you've seen it all.
It's widely regarded as the cushiest job on campus, until the FT from hell arrives! |
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erinyes
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 272
Location: GuangDong, GaoZhou
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
Erinyes, short listing from a pile of resumes is simple. People who can't write decent English, are un or under qualified or who don't meet the J and P specifications get deleted. This eliminates 80-90 %!
The reason FAO staff try to avoid this task is:
1] Too much work.
2] Their English skills aren't up to it.
3] They'd rather be drinking tea, gossiping, watching movies, playing games........you've seen it all.
It's widely regarded as the cushiest job on campus, until the FT from hell arrives! |
But the FAO at this school isn't just an FAO, they also teach the standard number of classes. They are chosen for the job because they are famous for having good English.
Oh - and here, they don't usually sit around drinking tea. At my last school they did, but here, they mostly do work. Many teachers here don't do the 2 per day that they do at other schools. Many actually do 4.
But perhaps you have seen the teachers at number 5, number 9 number 51. I work at a number 1. They work them just as much as they work me.
Anyway - I am off to the PSB by myself again tomorrow to hand in all my paperwork. The rationale for going alone? If there does end up being some kind of problem, they will take pity on the poor foreigner who has no Chinese person to help them.
I'll be sure to let you know if there is a problem. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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ohh deary me - are you people still talking about recruiters - didn't you listen to no-exits sterling advice
well I better add my lot once gain - erinyes wrote -
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| Sorry - how is wading through hundreds of resumes |
well if the poster really thinks hundreds of applicants will apply for her job after she leaves  - well a good job she's soon away from that school so she can take a break
the reality of the situation may be mirrored by the fact that the way anybody seems to able to secure FT work in China could indicate that landing one serious applicant is quite an achievement. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| landing one serious applicant is quite an achievement. |
Absolutely. But when you add in the total timewasters who bulk mail resumes, and hopeful non native English speakers, it looks impressive when you open the email.
I know the above may label me as a recruiter. Not so. I used to help sort the chaff because the FAO secretary was so cute, and I'm so gullible. But as said previously, it didn't take long.
The ones you wanted to take out Mafia contracts on were ostensibly well qualified, they negotiated for months, the deal seemed done, then suddenly a gravely ill mother or some such shi'te would come on the scene 2 weeks before arrival. And then replacing no-shows in a hurry, otherwise I'd be teaching my contracted hours, instead of a very cushy light load. |
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prof
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Location: Boston/China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: |
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As usual, 'clark w. griswald/chevy chase' has taken the schools side and provided poor advice for newbies.
To the OP: you let the school off the hook. It's up to them to work things out for you, not you.
If you were found to be 'overstaying' you simply provide details of 'why' and watch the school squirm and pay up.
Some recruiters/school owners here want you to feel weak and powerless when it simply is not so. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| they negotiated for months, the deal seemed done, then suddenly a gravely ill mother or some such shi'te would come on the scene 2 weeks before arrival. And then replacing no-shows in a hurry, |
this info raises the point of how your potential value to a new employer - as in the negotiation of wages and conditions - rises if you find your job in country You know an employer being able to eyeball you and see that you're capable of doing the job is a situation that any go-for-it type applicant should be able to spin towards getting a better deal - and another advantage in having a good economy supporting your FT career move - one that gives you time to work out this market first hand. After all just read another thread to see how travelling blind on a shoestring to China can make you look like Shark bait. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
Erinyes, short listing from a pile of resumes is simple. People who can't write decent English, are un or under qualified or who don't meet the J and P specifications get deleted. This eliminates 80-90 %!
The reason FAO staff try to avoid this task is:
1] Too much work.
2] Their English skills aren't up to it.
3] They'd rather be drinking tea, gossiping, watching movies, playing games........you've seen it all.
It's widely regarded as the cushiest job on campus, until the FT from hell arrives! |
Who are you talking to? And who are you talking ABOUT? Has it escaped your attention that those recruiters are Chinese, mostly with dubious English comprehension skills that only forward their prospectives in the hope to get their commission?
It isn't easy tosort out the chaff from the good applicants! Not only does one ad generate multiple enquiries, each enquirer likely ask the same inane questions that often have been dealt with in the FAQ.
A reputable hirer once showed me a colection of such enquiries; a single person bombarded him with 40 follow-up e-mails.
He was also approached by a westerner eager to make some money, so he outsourced some of his recruiting to this foreigner. Do you think the FT made much money? Do you think he had less work to do?
Wrong on both accounts!
It really is true that lots of FTs are no more seriious about doing their job in China or honouring any of their contracted duties than our employers or agents do.
It's a Tale of Two Cities, and both cities are of equally depressing quality! |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Steppenwolf wrote: |
| eslstudies wrote: |
Erinyes, short listing from a pile of resumes is simple. People who can't write decent English, are un or under qualified or who don't meet the J and P specifications get deleted. This eliminates 80-90 %!
The reason FAO staff try to avoid this task is:
1] Too much work.
2] Their English skills aren't up to it.
3] They'd rather be drinking tea, gossiping, watching movies, playing games........you've seen it all.
It's widely regarded as the cushiest job on campus, until the FT from hell arrives! |
Who are you talking to? And who are you talking ABOUT? Has it escaped your attention that those recruiters are Chinese, mostly with dubious English comprehension skills that only forward their prospectives in the hope to get their commission?
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Roger, old sport, I'm talking to the readers of this forum: obvious, one [but not you] would think.
And yes, it did escape my attention that most recruiters are Chinese.
And who taught you English: W.E.Johns?
And could you paraphrase your last sentence into something meaningful? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Has it escaped your attention that those recruiters are Chinese, |
which means that any thinking person who wants to work here must think doubly hard about what goes on during the application process - since the extra trouble and distance involved in getting a job here - and the potential pitfalls - would logicaly indicate that a school that finds application sorting as too much bother, or indeed are not equiped language wise to undertake this job, don't even pass the first test of decent FT management competency
Remember when getting FT's over here - recruiters are mainly concentrating on money - while a decent schools, which are also looking to make a buck out of you, should also be looking for reliability, qualification, skill and so on and so on - if sifting through E-mails is too much of a tiresome process in this endevour then that school may not be up to the job of looking after you - as indeed erinyes' school is with regard to her visa problems 
ESL - you also a Biggles fan |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| ESL - you also a Biggles fan Laughing |
Absolutely. "Biggles Pulls It Off Again" is a classic. |
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