| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: |
 |
|
However in saying that..in the last post..let me also inform that an quasi international school in Beijing was reported and "raided" (two days ago) or something (of a term) to that effect..the "raid" was based on a disgruntled employee's report originally blamed on a former Iranian teacher who's name it is reported was on the original complaint..but who is thought by school management to have been set up and instead they have ID'd a former Chinese employee as being the complainer...
It has been told to me that the authorities were looking for teachers who were on Fs which a portion of the staff had...
Again it is how the law is interpreted by the convening authority that determined the legality of working of the F visa...but one thing I do believe..if working for an international school..you need a Z |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cj750 wrote: |
| Again it is how the law is interpreted by the convening authority that determined the legality of working of the F visa. |
This is a sentiment that is often expressed in the debate about the legality of F visas vs. Z visas - and it is something that I strongly disagree with.
What you, and others no doubt, are referring to is application of the law not the law itself, and does not change the fact that something is legal or not.
If the local authorities in a certain area are happily stamping away approvals for F visas for teachers who are obviously working as teachers then that is certainly fine by me. I have been here long enough to know that it happens, and in those cases generally everyone is happy. It does not make it legal however and I believe that it gives foreign teachers (and their employers) a false sense of security. At any time someone higher up the chain of authority can state that you are working illegally.
All it takes is a change in staffing, a new procedure, an incident (such as foreign teacher on an F visa getting busted for something illegal), an accident involving a foreigner working illegally on an F visa, or a complaint from a disgruntled past teacher or competing school - and the life of those individuals on F visas takes a dramatic change.
I don't go on about this in an effort to change people's minds who have made the choice to work here on F visas. That is their individual right and has nothing to do with me.
I go on about this as it seems wrong to me for anyone to suggest that just because you can get away with it that it is somehow legal when it clearly is not. If people are going to make the decision to work here on an F visa then they should do so based upon the facts, and the facts as I seem them are as follows:
You can work in China on an F visa probably without any trouble at all and sometimes even with the apparent support of the local authorities, but you only have fully legal status as a salaried foreign worker in China if you are here under a Z visa. So if you want to take some risks then go with the F. If you want to be sure that you are legal then stick with the Z. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
If the local authorities in a certain area are happily stamping away approvals for F visas for teachers who are obviously working as teachers then that is certainly fine by me. I have been here long enough to know that it happens, and in those cases generally everyone is happy. It does not make it legal however and I believe that it gives foreign teachers (and their employers) a false sense of security. At any time someone higher up the chain of authority can state that you are working illegally.
|
And a z will give you no more security.....and at anytime anyone up the chain can decide you are not work legally..what authority will you appeal this decision..there is no security when working in China..F, Z whatever...
| Quote: |
| What you, and others no doubt, are referring to is application of the law not the law itself, and does not change the fact that something is legal or not. |
the law itself doesn t define the terms associate d with the visas..so it is purposely left up to the convening authority to make these determination... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cj750 wrote: |
| And a z will give you no more security.....and at anytime anyone up the chain can decide you are not work legally.. |
This is simply not true. Of course a person who is working here on a legitimate Z visa is far more secure from a point of view of working legally than someone working on an F visa.
Just look at the discussions here. No one has ever disputed that a Z visa is a legal work document for those working in China.
What is often disputed is the relevance of an F visa for those wanting to work in China. If we cannot even agree on this here on this board I can only imagine the trouble any of us would have trying to convince a government worker who didn't agree that an F is legal.
Certainly someone high up the chain of command could revoke your Z visa and work permit rights to work here if they had reason to do so, but they could never declare you to be working illegally provided that your Z visa is legitimate and you are working for the employer and in the role that your documents were issued for.
The same cannot be said for the F visa which makes it a much more precarious visa in this regard.
To try to compare the two in this way is really a desperate and futile argument.
| cj750 wrote: |
| what authority will you appeal this decision..there is no security when working in China..F, Z whatever... |
To a certain degree I agree with you on this. We are guests here so long as we are welcome and we maintain the correct documentation to stay here. At any time the legislation could change and these changes could negate our legality here. This would not mean that we were working illegally however, it would mean that we could not continue to work legally. There is a difference.
I really don't agree with the suggestion that an F visa is more or even equally secure to a Z visa in this regard. A Z visa is quite clearly a much more stable document to be on if you are here in China working and earning a salary. I don't think that this is at debate! Or are you trying to suggest that an F visa is the better option here?
| cj750 wrote: |
| the law itself doesn t define the terms associate d with the visas..so it is purposely left up to the convening authority to make these determination... |
China laws are not the most clear and water tight laws in the world, but it is certainly not up to any individual within the relevant departments to decide what is legal and what is not. If they make an error and approve something that they shouldn't have approved then that is not an endemnity for you the foreign teacher.
The Chinese language regulations are very clear on the F and Z visa issue, and unlike most of us these are the ones that the authorities refer to when making determinations. I have never suggested that these regulations are enforced and implemented evenly throughout the country but this most certainly has no effect upon the issue of legal or not.
It is clear that a Z visa is a much more stable visa to be working in China on than an F visa from a legal standpoint. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Just look at the discussions here. No one has ever disputed that a Z visa is a legal work document for those working in China.
|
not saying they have..just that z gives you no more protection if the convening authority decides your to go..
| Quote: |
If we cannot even agree on this here on this board I can only imagine the trouble any of us would have trying to convince a government worker who didn't agree that an F is legal.
|
the government worker already knows which school are legal to hire the F Visa holder..I doubt an FT can convince the government of anything...after all you haven't convinced me..
| Quote: |
| To try to compare the two in this way is really a desperate and futile argument. |
No comparison at all..just the revelation that a F offers no more protection should the convening authority wants you out..there are no review boards..
make of my statement what you will but I will stand by my original word and I don't think you can show that a Z will protect you anymore in this situation than an F..should they want you to go ..you go..
| Quote: |
| It is clear that a Z visa is a much more stable visa to be working in China on than an F visa from a legal standpoint. |
I am afraid there is not much of a legal standpoint at all when referring to visa laws in the PRC...the convening authority has the power to determine the crime and punishment..court procedures allow the officer/authority to consider almost anything when making a determination..
| Quote: |
| China laws are not the most clear and water tight laws in the world, but it is certainly not up to any individual within the relevant departments to decide what is legal and what is not. |
never said an individual of a department..I said the convening authority..whether it be a officer as in some provinces and in others it is a member of the administration..
| Quote: |
| have never suggested that these regulations are enforced and implemented evenly throughout the country but this most certainly has no effect upon the issue of legal or not. |
no but a convening authority has.... they are charged with the interpretation of laws and regulations..
now having said that..I would not work on an F visa..but to sell the idea that a z or anything else for that matter is a method to insure that you will not have visa problems is just not true...and according to my experience..many work on an F legally...as there is full disclosure by their work units to the visa offices..
that is not to say that all Fs are legal..if you create a virtual office in Hong Kong and use a false business address and letter head to achieve the visa..it would be in my mind an illegal attempt a visa procurement..but if your request is documented by a university and letter head from the University explaining your position is presented to the visa office..I could only assume that the visa office knows what is legal.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
That looks like a 750 riding in circles 
Cheers and beers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
CJ750 you seem to be arguing a point seperate to this thread.
It seems to me that we are discussing whether the Z or the F visa is the legal visa to work on when earning a salary as a foreign English teacher in China.
From your last post you seem to be arguing that a visa is a visa no matter what it is called and that none of them give us absolute security in China. I agree that a visa can be revoked at any time if we are no longer entitled to it, if we breach the conditions of its issuance and it gets cancelled, or if there is a change in legislation that makes the visa no longer valid for us.
The 'secuity' that I was referring to earlier was not a security of the visa, but a security for the foreign teacher in that a teacher working here on a legitimate Z visa for the work that they do can feel more secure that he or she is legal, over a teacher working on an F visa whose situation is much more open to interpretation by us and the authorities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeffinflorida
Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 2024
Location: "I'm too proud to beg and too lazy to work" Uncle Fester, The Addams Family season two
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Granted I have only been coming to China for 2 years now but I really don't believe that any job in China allows an FT "security"...
If your employer wants to FU#K you then there really is little to stop them or help you - in China. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The 'secuity' that I was referring to earlier was not a security of the visa, but a security for the foreign teacher in that a teacher working here on a legitimate Z visa for the work that they do can feel more secure that he or she is legal, over a teacher working on an F visa whose situation is much more open to interpretation by us and the authorities. |
Usually a z visa is in accordance with a Residence Sticker..and usually only good for the period of time to sort out the paperwork..around three months is the greatest length of period I have seen..
at any time the issuer of that paperwork can withdraw and your RP will be converted..to another type of visa (maybe an L..and maybe not) for any length of time..
...and if the issuing authority gave the OK for a F visa based on an application to teach in China at a particular university ..then it is already been interpreted by the convening authority..
reinterpretation of any visa can come at any time..a z may make a teacher fill more secure ....the trouble with the z is that the origin of the z is often ..not from the source of a teacher employment..with many companies working through shell schools or companies..impossible for the FT to know unless they have a handle on the method of operation of education companies..no ..not anymore secure.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jeffinflorida wrote: |
Granted I have only been coming to China for 2 years now but I really don't believe that any job in China allows an FT "security"...
If your employer wants to FU#K you then there really is little to stop them or help you - in China. |
To a certain degree I agree with you on this Jeff. No job gives the foreign teacher 100% security and this is exactly why the teacher needs to prepare well and research their decision to come to China. One thing that I believe to be important here is ensuring that you are legal and it seems to me that the Z visa is crucial to this as it is pretty universally accepted as being the correct visa for working in China. Why make yourself any more vulnerable by taking the path of uncertainty that the F visa offers?
I don't share the view that employers are out to rip us off (there are certainly a few that may fit this description), but when things go wrong it is very often the foreign teacher who bears the repercussions.
CJ750 you have lost me a bit with much of your last post. Assuming that I probably don't need to know and that others do understand it I will restrict my reply to the following:
| cj750 wrote: |
| a z may make a teacher fill more secure ....the trouble with the z is that the origin of the z is often ..not from the source of a teacher employment..with many companies working through shell schools or companies..impossible for the FT to know unless they have a handle on the method of operation of education companies..no ..not anymore secure.. |
This is certainly a problem hence the fact that I have always referred to legitimate Z visas. But is the same not also true of F visas.
In fact I would argue that the problem you outline above is much more routinely the case with F visas than with Z visas just because an F visa requires less dcumentation and therefore less administrative control.
So it seems to me that your argument is not so much about which visa is the correct one for foreign teachers wanting to work legally, but more so about visa fraud in general. Visa fraud is an issue and mainly because it is often conducted without the knowledge of the foreign teacher. As I have stated above it is far less common with Z visas than it is with F visas, so for a teacher wanting to do what they can to avoid this situation then a Z visa is the safer bet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| This is certainly a problem hence the fact that I have always referred to legitimate Z visas. But is the same not also true of F visas. |
..that is why I have said that a Z or F are pretty much the same..
But if it is a legal F or a legal Z..the application is also same..
| Quote: |
| don't share the view that employers are out to rip us off |
if you don't have this mind set ..you will get ripped off..
| Quote: |
| So it seems to me that your argument is not so much about which visa is the correct one for foreign teachers wanting to work legally, |
No that is your argument..I have only stated that if a F is applied for legally ..then it is a legal visa..and there are Univeristies tha apply for F visas for teacher on letter head stating the position within there college...no matter how you rephraze it....I cannot change what I have witnessed..and they were legals Fs with teacher a teachin.. now can we stop restating my argument so it will fit with your advice..just take for granted that we disagree about Fs and SAFEA..
| Quote: |
| As I have stated above it is far less common with Z visas than it is with F visas, so for a teacher wanting to do what they can to avoid this situation then a Z visa is the safer bet. |
there is no way you can assure folks of this..its misinformation you have no proof to back up..
as a smatter of fact..if you look at all the stipulations that are required to obtain a z visa..and the lack of documentation it requires to obtain an F..it is likely more fraud is perpetrated by Universities wanting to hire unqualified teachers in their pursuit of a z..to appear on the up and up..simply because more documentation is required..
It is no safer on a Z than an F..
it is fairly easy to gain a Foreign Workers Permit (in my experience)which can have a z visa ...I was able to do one of these by myself with an employment letter when my former SAFEA employer would not give me a release letter..
That is not to say you cant be kicked out on an F..so far I know of no one who was kicked..others may have stories to share..
As a note of caution..I have and will continue to offer this...do not believe anything you read see or hear ..until it happens..and if you get away with something..then don't question it..
No one can answer any question for sure..no law is absolute and no ones advice is golden...the best anyone can do is to make a lot of enquiries..and hope for the best..be willing to fight..and realize when to give up, cut your loses and regroup..
No visa or guidelines of an association such as SAFEA will offer you one bit of protection in China..you are your own best asset..and it's all in the "Art of the Deal" and that talent may be called for after the signing of a contract as well as during the hiring process..western run orgs are my recommendation..as I do think all Chinese employers are out to get you..it is the culture of "cut throat" business...and anyone who leads you to believe that there is a procedure to protect you as a working teacher in China is doing the applicant a disservice.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cj750 wrote: |
| ..that is why I have said that a Z or F are pretty much the same.. But if it is a legal F or a legal Z..the application is also same.. |
No one is disagreeing that they are both visas and in that regard the same. If each is obtained legitimately and used for its stated purpose then yes they are both legitimate visas to be in China on. It depends upon your reasons for being here as to which one you need. This �purpose� is the debate, not whether they are both visas or not.
Are you suggesting that the purpose of the F visa and the Z visa are the same? If not then please clarify what the distinction between the two is, as if there was no distinction between the two then there would not need to be two separate classifications.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| don't share the view that employers are out to rip us off |
if you don't have this mind set ..you will get ripped off.. |
If you do have this mindset you are not likely to enjoy your time in China as every little inconsistency will be seen by you as being an attempt by someone to rip you off.
I don�t have this mindset about Chinese employers and I have never been ripped off by them.
Exercising diligence is important as coming here with a carefree and trusting attitude could lead to problems, but coming here with the negative attitude that all employers are out to rip you off just seems to me to negate much of the reason for coming here in the first place. I mean if you really believe that Chinese people as a whole are that dishonest then I would really have to question why you would want to come here in the first place, and perhaps that explains some of the bitterness that we see on this forum. Perhaps people who hold this view are really tainting their own China experiences without any help from the locals 
| cj750 wrote: |
| I have only stated that if a F is applied for legally ..then it is a legal visa..and there are Univeristies tha apply for F visas for teacher on letter head stating the position within there college... |
The point of the discussion has been stated many times, but you seem to be missing it.
Just because one is issued a visa, be it an F or a Z, that does not mean that the person is automatically working in China legally. The person is only working here legally if they are working for the purpose outlined in the application that the visa was issued upon, and for the employer stated in the application. Someone looking for legal work in China is much, much more likely to find this if they stick with employment offering Z visas as this is the visa that is universally accepted as being a legal work visa, and the process of obtaining a Z visa is much more detailed than the F. If an employer, or a teacher for that matter, is looking for 'an illegitimate' visa then they will go the F route as it is much easier.
In the case of the university that you refer to, one of two things is happening:
a) the local authorities there are stamping and approving F visas for work in China, but this process is not in line with national legislation and the teacher could therefore be declared to be working illegally at any time;
b) that the university is applying for an F visa to avoid (or because they cannot) applying for a Z visa. The F visa that comes from this application is totally legitimate, but once the foreign teacher starts to use it for anything other than it's intended purpose then that teacher, if caught, would be determined to be working illegally. As the F visa cannot be obatined based upon salaried work in China then assuming that is what the foreign teacher is doing then he or she would be working illegally.
The problem that I have with the above and the reason that I believe that we should not kid ourselves here is that ultimately it is the employee that could be fined and deported for the illegal work, not the employer nor the authorities, so why leave yourself vulnerable?
Again an important distinction to be made here. I am not discussing what and can and cannot happen, but what should and should not happen. Foreign teachers who want to ensure that they are legal should avoid the F visa route if he or she is working on a salary as a foreign English teacher in China.
| cj750 wrote: |
| there is no way you can assure folks of this..its misinformation you have no proof to back up.. |
There is one problem here Cj, how is one supposed to prove something that does not exist?
What we all know is that only certain employers qualify to employ foreign teachers on a Z visa and therefore any fraud there would be much more easily identified and the repercussions of such more serious as that employ could loose that right.
Conversly applying for F visas is relatively easy and almost any business in China can help a foreigner apply for and receive an F visa simply by typing up and chopping an invitation letter.
We all know that Chinese people generally like the least amount of fuss when doing their jobs and to suggest that they would go to all of the trouble of obtaining an illegitimate Z visa when they could have just gotten an illegitmate F visa for the teacher goes against this common knowledge.
The rest of your post is just that anti-China babble about no one protecting your rights in China as a foreigner blah blah blah. The thing that I really don't get with that whole point of view is that surely if you were correct and that no one was protecting the rights of foreigners working in China then the whole idea of protecting your own rights and making sure that you are in the very least working here legally would become just that much more important. If the Chinese society is out to get you why in the world would you want to paint a target on your back?!
CJ750 rather than going around and around in circles (we are both doing that here) why not go back to basics. Do you believe that an F visa is a legitimate visa for a foreign teacher of English who is earning a salary here to work on? Assuming that you do, can you provide some basis for your belief other than anecdotal experience about what can happen? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| CJ750 rather than going around and around in circles (we are both doing that here) why not go back to basics. Do you believe that an F visa is a legitimate visa for a foreign teacher of English who is earning a salary here to work on? Assuming that you do, can you provide some basis for your belief other than anecdotal experience about what can happen? |
Yes...I believe with the proper paper work and a invitation purpose letter form the University or work unit..accepted by the local PSB..
I can only tell you what happens..as all your reference points for laws and regulations in china..don't amount to a hill of beans..
I have said many times I have a z and would recommend a z to most folks..but if you want me to acknowledge that all those who work on Fs are doing so illegal..I know that not true..so lets leave it at that...I disagree with your advice ..that's all.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert0007
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: F Visa Info this year |
|
|
I do know a lot about this topic.
Hong Kong visa agencies did issue 1 year F multiple visas up until late last year. Now all that i know i can get is a 6 month multiple.
Just go to a visa agency and they will do all the work for you. It may cost from 1,450 rmb to 1,800 to get this visa from them in 10 days.
You can do it yourself for cheaper but there has been a huge line up and waiting around. So i don't want all that pressure of going and coming back to the chinese goverment visa office.
Yes, i have heard that you can still get a 1 year F Visa multiple entry. This depends on the last date you entered China. This will cost you 3,000 RMB. I tried to get this but my last entry was from Hong Kong 6 months ago.
Just look in the expat newspapers for these visa agencies that can help get it done for you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Robert, that's a nice update, but be careful about calling it "agencies issue F visas" (consulates do).
That 3,000 RMB F is rather expensive, isn't it?
Peace to our forums
and
cheers and beers to all FTs working under L, F, Z or no visas in China 
_____________________________________________________________
Z is the most secure working visa for foreign teachers in China  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
