Job Discussion Forums

[kev7161]

I'm mostly talking about college students and maybe some senior high students. I was thinking about my days teaching Senior middle school a couple years back and I also have been reading several recent posts from those "newbies" seeking a university job. Many foreigners come here to teach without a teaching background. They may have a degree in . . . something, but this could be their first step into a classroom. That means no training, no experience, perhaps little indication of what they are getting themselves into.

Do you think maybe, just maybe, young adult students are wise to this? Do you think they've maybe had a couple of inexperienced FTs in their past education who perhaps couldn't teach themselves out of a wet paperbag? (never quite sure what that phrase meant!) How many FTs with no experience come into a classroom unprepared, nervous, unable to take control right away, etc.? How many come to China not for teaching, but to sight-see, get drunk most every night, ogle the girls (or boys) and teaching is just a way to make ends meet? Do you think students see this kind of behavior/lack of experience? Don't you think they talk to each other about it? Don't you think they wonder why Joe Blow FT who doesn't seem to know what he's doing is trying to actually teach them? Yes, of course there are lazy students out there and no amount of experience is going to get them to change, but I'm talking about students that literally resent their FTs. I've had a few in my past job.

Just simply knowing English and a few simple grammar rules is not enough. Some people are natural-born teachers and a degree/experience is not necessary, but I'm guessing they may be the minority. I'm certainly not pointing at any particular posters here at Dave's, just something I've been thinking about and maybe stir up some discussion on it. No name-calling please.

[clark.w.griswald]

Well said Kev and I think that even the junior high and elementary aged kids work this one out sometimes.

It seems to me that this is the fault of the schools that hire these teachers though, not the teachers themselves. Some teachers with the best of intentions do try their best but just don't get there, but from the students perspective that would likely be the same as the boozer who comes in totally unprepared. Especially when the students are paying for the class themselves, or if they have other study that they could be doing rather than wasting their time sitting through an hour of nothing.

I personally don't think that this is an argument as to qualification (I am sure that some will go in that direction with their arguments) but more one of regulation. I think that this is achievable in many parts of China if the schools want to do this. In the past schools probably had to take whatever foreigner graced their gates, but with more foreigners teaching here these days schools can start to be a bit selective.

In the case of adult students, lets hope that they start to speak out about this as that is likely the best pressure on schools to employ teachers rather than foreigners. And in this I mean foreigners who are here to teach, rather than foreigners who are here to be...well...foreigners!

[Steppenwolf]

I plead conflict of interests on the part of Chinese employers: they can't afford to lose face by saying FTs are better qualifed or more effective in teaching their own language to Chinese; for decades the mantra has been "we Chiense teach the substantial subjects, you FTs teach 'oral' or 'conversation English'.
This has certainly helped degrade foreigners among Chinese; since we also have a number of diehard fanatics among us who believe bilignual teaching is the only avenue that leads to a perfect grasp of English we enjoy a generally low image.

It's not really surprising then that training centres and even schools hire social misfits that may optically add colour due to their alien physiognomy though they add no intrinsic value to the school's programmes.

[laowaigirl]

I'm sure this is true to some extent. But I also think about the language teachers I've had in the States with teaching degrees that were horrible! God, we gave them an awful time, too. I know the degree would probably help a lot of people, but I totally agree that some people are naturally better teachers than others.

I really hope I'm going to be one of them

[Brian Caulfield]

I think the problem lies in the fact that we don't have the forum to get together and talk shop and look at ways to improve the system . When working in other countries there were many workshops and national meetings where teachers (local and foreign )and book companies got together and discussed teaching methodology . Besides In Time I get very little stimulation for teaching here.

[Plan B]

A good observation with a lot of scope for discussion.....

[Plan B]

[Rooster]

I agree with the previous contributor. Working in a training center for adults can be more difficult in regards to expectations. Since the students are paying, they expect more. I'm sorry, I'm not Superman, nor do I know everything. I'm the English teacher. Forgive me if I don't know what malignant cancer is; I'm not a Doctor. But, it seems to me that the student's will complain.

As for this - "...I often read complaints along the lines of "the teacher does not respect our culture".

In my opinion, it's a Catch 22. They, the students, want to learn about a different culture, but when a teacher points out the differences, they cry foul.

[DistantRelative]

Ah! In a perfect world, much of what you say sounds just peachy. But the reality can be quite different than the perception. Who's to say what constitutes a good teacher and what doesn't? We can't even agree on what methodolgy works the best. One thing most seem to agree on is the fact that being degreed doesn't necessarily insure that one will be a successful ESL teacher. What's most important, that high caliber degree or an outstanding classroom presence?
I teach Junior Mids. My class sizes average 55 per. I see each class once a week for 40 minutes. My school advocates that I come in for that 40 minutes, play some games and leave em smiling and happy when I'm done, they're not much concerned with whether they learn anything. The school simply wants to be able to say they have foreign teachers on staff, preferably one the students like, helps with enrollment. I'd venture to say most schools have a similar mindset.
Because they see us so little, and we have little to do with the almighty exam based system that they're reared on from day one, maybe it's as simple as the students just not taking our classes all that serious.
Admit it, most of us have days when we find it difficult to take ourselves serious.
As for myself, I want to give something back, and spent time thinking about how I could best accomplish that. Though some may disagree, because of the circumstances, I quickly grew to understand that my job as much as anything is as a motivator. IMO, and bolstered by some of my personal experience here in China, the biggest impediment to learning English is a lack of environment. So with the limited time I have in the classroom, in addition to trying to help students understand what they are learning week to week from their Chinese English teachers (in fun and interesting ways) I strive to motivate them to use it outside the classroom. To see one another in a different way, as resources. I figure if I can do that then I've given em something. With the limited amount of time I have maybe it's the best I can hope for.
In any case I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be too hard on one another. In most cases you are not put in a situation where their success is based on anything extraordinary that you've done. I manage enough small victories along the way to keep me content and motivated.
As always, this is all just one individuals opinion. Seems we all tend to see the ESL world and our role in it a little bit differently.

Zhuhao,


Shawn

[englishgibson]

[cj750]

[DistantRelative]

CJ, don't know as it's true or not, just my opinion, but what a kind thing to say. Thank You

When I first arrived in China I took a position (through Buckland) in a smaller city in what's known as Shambei (Northern Shaanxi Provence). It was teaching at a public Senior Middle School (I was assigned to teach senior 1 classes). Myself and the other teacher were the first this particular school had ever had. After arriving, getting settled and acclimated I found that the level of English amongst the student body pretty much varied from non exsistent to so-so, with the exception of about 10 Senior 2 students. By comparison these students English was unbelievable. You could converse with them at a natural pace, and didn't seem to have to "tone down" or simplify your choice of vocabulary. I scratched my head and wondered why had their English developed to a level so much above and beyond their peers? So one day I sat them down and asked the question "what were they doing different"? Without ever having to have been told by anyone, these kids figured it out on their own. If they were ever going to improve they needed to "use" the target language. They said whenever they were together, whether it was 2, 3, 4 etc.. of em the only language they conversed in was English. They fed off each other, used one another as a resource, and as a result raised their English to another level.

It was probably the most valuable lesson I've learned with regards to teaching here in China, and I'm glad I was able learn it early on. As a result I now spend a lot of my time in class trying ways to motivate and get students working to use English outside the classroom. It's difficult, and if any of you have had any success I for one would appreciate you sharing your insight as to how you accomplish it.

Again, thanks for the kind words, compliments from peers you respect are always particularly appreciated

Zhuhao,

Shawn

[kev7161]

[eslstudies]

[movinaround]

[quote="eslstudies"]