Job Discussion Forums

[leeroy]

So, yesterday, we were studying future tenses... Along came

"By 2020, more than half of British marriages will end up in divorce",

or something like that. We had a quick chat about whether we thought it was true (everyone did), and the reasons behind it. Most cited fairly similar responses, except Aki (Japan) and Li Hua (China). Aki was of the opinion that we divorce more these days because we are "like children", Li Hua reasoned that it was because western people "hated each other". Curiously, those from other nationalities (such as Syria, Mexico, Colombia) gave the more common reasons such as increasing individidualism, social agents determining social structures, etc...

So, at the halloween party, I was chatting to an ex-student of mine, curious to know more about the East Asian attitude to westerners. After some prodding (and a couple of beers), Sayaka informed me that western people (in Japanese eyes) were

"like animals. Not only because hairy but with emotion. They cannot control, always happy, sad, angry, jealous, maybe not like animal but like children. They no have discipline.."

A highly subjective issue, of course, what Sayaka sees as "discipline" I would see as "supression" - but still... Are East Asians more disciplined when it comes to emotion?

[Steiner]

...and does it affect suicide rates?

[scot47]

'Aki was of the opinion that we divorce more these days because we are "like children", Li Hua reasoned that it was because western people "hated each other".' says LEEROY

Well what is your explanation ? This is certainly one of the huge changes in Britain in the last 50 years. In my parents' time only actors and aristocrats divorced. Others stayed married even if they hated each other.

Now we have an atomised society where people live as solitaries or in a series of "relationships" which are of short-term nature.

Maybe Li Hua is right !

[denise]

I think suppression is more accurate than discipline, and the suppressed emotions sometimes leak out in unpleasant ways. In the few short months that I have been here, I have only seen a few examples (not nearly enough to generalize, so I am fully prepared to be corrected by the Japan experts)--after-hours drinking binges, passing out/fighting in public places, etc.

I am sort of darkly amused by your student's comments--funny how students can generalize and stereotype, but we as teachers must refrain... (Except, of course, when we come to the Forum to vent!) I recall a few former students in the Czech Republic telling me flat-out that they didn't like Americans. Ummm... is it really polite to say that to an American, I wonder? (I'm not faulting their opinions, which they had every right to express, and often did so quite eloquently--just questioning their etiquette.)

d

[leeroy]

Scot47, my opinion?

In the past (and still in the vast majority of the world), there is a top down Weberian kind of power structure with

Society (which defines)
Social Structures (such as families, which limit the agency of)
Agents (ie. people)

People were married into nuclear families because it is what society expected of them. "The nuclear family" was defined by society - a working male "head", domestic housewife, and a couple of kids. Social attitudes at the time did not tolerate much diversity, or variance from this model. Divorce would result in breaking this social structure - which back in those days was considered not a cool thing to do.

Now, however, families are not defined by society rather the individuals that the social structures consist of. So

Agents (i.e. people, decide which)
Social Structure (is good for them, building their own models individually.)
Society (is comprised of these social structures).

So, essentially there has been a reversal of influence. In the past society dictated what you could do, and was in many ways both more a supporting and constraining influence. Now, people construct family arrangements that are good for them, not what society has dictated for them. So homosexual couples live together, young people "live in sin", parents get divorced, etc...

People are divorcing more now because they can. I'm sure many people suffered in unhappy marriages in the 1950s because they felt unable to divorce - now they do it. So I see a rising divorce rate as no bad thing, I see it as a rise in individual power and freedom.

As the resident grouch though, I expect you (scot47) take a slightly different view...

In the past people learnt to put up with each other. In a marriage they would realise that things aren't always perfect - and would not compare themselves or their partners to a hypothetical model of an "ideal".

These days, growing individualism has resulted in growing selfishness. If people don't get exactly what they want from a relationship then they feel hard-done by, the "Get what YOU want!" culture that is prevalent in western media is inadvertently alienating ourselves from each other. We demand more now (materially, and in relationships) - and so are consequently disappointed more often.

Possibly, Aki saw this as childish. The Japanese (I understand) consider being able to control your emotions and desires to be a kind of rite to adulthood. The "emotional selfishness" I have tried to describe (i.e. "I'm divorcing you because you're not good enough") is seen as immature.

Thus, rising divorce rates are a signal of a worrying trend towards an extreme form of individualism, where no-one is able to satisfy anyone else's needs (emotionally or otherwise) because we are all so damn picky.

[Capergirl]

I am impressed by your last post, Leeroy. Are you sure you're only 23? Very good summation, IMHO.

[scot47]

Well I am with Aki. The "ME FIRST" attitude prevalent today is dysfunctional. Freedom is so precious that it must be rationed.

[Capergirl]

[Roger]

Aki and Hua do not have OPINIONS - they have preconceived ideas. Their problem is they come from extremely nationalistic societies where it is taboo to criticise one's own people. Anything bad or inferior is foreign.
This helps ignore problems such as unhappy marriages (too common in China). And, in order to placate segments of the society, the national leaders have to explain that in foreign lands divorces are almost as common as marriages (there can only be as many divorces as marriages, after all), and the huge difference between Chinese/Japanese divorce rates and Wesern divorce rates must be to do with western animal behaviour - more emotional, more romantic, etc.
Yes, the word 'romantic' is widely misconstrued here in China to mean 'promiscuous'. Which is the most 'romantic' country in the world?
There are two choices, depending on personal predilection, which is not based on any personal insight into the matter:
- France
- Italy.
No joke! Every Chinese will tell you "the French (substitute "Italians" for it as you like) are the MOST ROMANTIC people in the world..." Meaning: Loose mores!
It's very interesting because I have marital experience with partners from both the Latin and the Chinese culture: My former French common-law wife was anything but a loose woman. Far, far from that! Loyal, hard-working, honest, et j'en passe.
It does hurt me when I have to stand this CHinese bulls..t about French! Especially since I have known at least half a dozen divorced Chinese women! Each one of them gave me many times the impression their husbands must have fared poorly under them!
Divorces are on a steep rise in China. When I came here, it was reported that less than 10% of all couples ever divorce (and they marry early - so a marriage lasts a long time!). Now, in less than ten years, it has gone up to somewhere around 20% - which means that newly-weds don't stay together long any more!
Why?
Why do CHinese women want to mary? Many seek to depend on a working man. They want to run the household, gamble (making money!), look after children. Admittedly, this is a one-sided picture - there are other women too, career women for example. I also know of a millionaire girl (aged now 2 who married a 3000 RMB a month civil servant, aged 30. She owns a flat and a car, he owns next to nothing, and, amazingly, they are still happy three years after their wedding!

But many other women take the money their husband is earning for granted. CHinese society also is more conservative as women still have relatively well-defined household and mother roles to fulfill. Dowries are still common, so marriages (not seldom arranged by parents!) are the conclusion of a business deal. Women become members of their husband's family, and their own family gets unburdened by their departure.
My own wife makes this plain to me whenever she is here - and we are now discussing splitting-up. I have had to act as a banker for her and her family - and the loans have never found their way back to me.
Perhaps, one decisive difference between western and East Asian marriages: ours revolve around what we feel for each other, respect and love; theirs - marriages of convenience, pragmatic problem solutions, clan alliances.

[Wolf]

In West we are often prone to act on our emotions. Sometimes this is taken to an unhealthy extreme.

In Japan and China (I've lived in both), many people are often prone to NOT act on their emotions. Sometimes this is taken to an unhealthy extreme.

As cited above already, some people from the West are prone to marry and divorce for selfish reasons.

That being said, many Japanese or Chinese seem willing to put up with abusive marriages, unpaid overtime (illegal in Japan. Seriously it is - go check) etc.

Just my two jiao.

[guest of Japan]

This is too hot for me to touch so I'll post the opinion of an older house wife I used to teach.

Westerners an unattainable idea of marriage. The equate love with marriage. If the love dies then westerns feel that they must look after their own happiness, rather than consider the well being of their children.

Westerners feel that to be married they have to do everything together. They must always attend social gatherings together and spend all their free time together. They lose sight of their individual lives. For this reason they get sick of each other, the love dies, and they feel entitled to a new life.

Japanese approach life as a partnership. Both feel free to pursue their own lives, but always keep the needs of the children first. I don't think I love my husband anymore, but he's a good partner for me.

[Wolf]

[guest of Japan]

I was only sharing the students opinion. But do believe she was referring to the Hollywood idea.

[Wolf]

[scot47]

"Duty" is now a minority concept in "Western" societies. We hear endless talks about "rights" but the same voices never talk about "duties".

If I have a "right" to something then it follows that someone has the duty to provide it.

If I am unhappy with my partner I must have a "right" to leave her and let the state support her and the children.

Hmmm?!