|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
Everybbody can't issue a legal opinion in the US or the UK. You have to be a lawyer, and have studied. |
Why are you so certain that Islamic law exactly parallels British or US law? Your analogy seems a bit strawman-ish.
| Quote: |
| And of course your students would be contradcting themselves; if not everybody is allowed to issue a 'fatwa' they would not be allowed to issue the 'fatwa' that not everybody can issue one! |
Again, you seem to be making strawmen up just to knock them down.
Anyway, according to Wikipedia (not the most sophisticated source, I know), only those scholars who have attained the rank of mufti have the authority to issue fatwas.
| Quote: |
| In the early days of Islam, fatawa were pronounced by distinguished scholars to provide guidance to other scholars, judges and citizens on how subtle points of Islamic law should be understood, interpreted or applied. There were strict rules on who is eligible (see below) to issue a valid fatwa and who could not, as well as on the conditions the fatwa must satisfy to be valid. Today many Muslim countries (such as Egypt and Tunisia) have an official mufti position; a distinguished expert in the Sharia is named by the civil authorities of the country. |
Since most 'mutawwa' are nowhere near the rank of mufti, it is not correct to say that they can issue fatwas, which is what 007 said.
| Quote: |
| 'Fatwa', like 'jihad' is one of those words that has gained overtones divorced from the original meaning. |
A bit like 'mutawwa'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Muslim
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
MOD edit
please use private messages for such detailed religious discussions |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MAstudent
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight.
Dearest Qos:
Sometimes I do wonder about your replies and the person who�s writing them. You seem to like to insult people a lot: real phoneys and identity crisis.
�I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight.�
Firstly, many people speak and write about Saudi Arabia and what�s happening in Saudi Arabia and they�re not Saudis. There is no law saying to speak about a country or a people you must be from them. If this was true then all the work done by sociolinguists would be a waste of time and irrelevant. The prerequisite to speak about any peoples or nations is knowledge of the people, knowledge of the culture, ability to question the peoples in questions, etc. No-one has ever mentioned what you are mentioning as a prerequisite. Perhaps you�ve never done a piece of academic research in your life, therefore don�t understand how things work!
�They should take a good hard look at the problems with their own nations and their own ethicity, and figure out their identity crisis instead of deflecting it on Saudi.�
Why you believe that commenting on something of importance and about a place where your living is ridiculous is beyond me. If I were British, I couldn�t comment on the US, or if I was an American I couldn�t comment on Iraq? What type of logic do you have?! Anyone can comment upon anything they wish (freedom of speech, heard of that!) they just need to be able to support their arguments with evidence. People have the right to express their opinion and other people have the right to disagree.
Western journalists who comment on Saudi Arabia are normally non Saudis as are many ME political analysts, are you saying that they are ridiculous or that they have an identity crisis or are these terms just reserved for those whose views you don�t share?! Much of what you say shows you don�t possess the tools for an intellectual debate.
Everything I say is based upon views held by Saudis. I have access to many Saudi�s (in and outside of my place of work) as well as I live amongst them, not behind some massive concrete wall built to keep the Saudis out.
�Just because Saudi is a Muslim nation in change, and they happen to be teaching ESL here, doesnt make them political analysts representative of the Saudi people, it does however make them ridiculous.�
Rather, I have studied Islamic and ME studies at Postgraduate level and my Phd thesis is on �Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�. So, I think I have the knowledge and access to be able to speak and write on this topic! What about you!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And here was me thinking you were an "MA Student" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| nyway, according to Wikipedia (not the most sophisticated source, I know), only those scholars who have attained the rank of mufti have the authority to issue fatwas. |
In your understanding, what is the rank of mufti??
In Islam, there is no authority to issue a fatwa! The fatwa is issued by any Islamic scholar, not necessarily working with the government, with the condition that he must hold the necessary Islamic knowledge (Fiqh), and the fatwa is not mandatory upon normal people.
From the above reference:
" the Fatwaa is issued by a person (or a board) having due knowledge and sincerity of heart; It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude; It is adequate with the needs of the contemporary world.
Today, with the existence of modern independent States, each with its own legislative system, and/or its own body of ulemas, each country develops and applies its own rules, based on its own interpretation of religious prescriptions.
Also,
"Fatāwa issued by Al-Azhar are not binding, but they are not just whistling in the wind either; individuals are free to accept them, but Islam recognizes that extenuating circumstances may prevent it. For example, it is the right of Muslims in France who object to the law banning the veil to bring it up to the legislative and judicial authorities. If the judiciary decides in favor of the government because the country is secular, they would be considered to be Muslim individuals acting under compelling circumstances." Otherwise, in his view, they would be expected to adhere to the fatwa." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MAstudent wrote: |
| ..I have studied Islamic and ME studies at Postgraduate level and my Phd thesis is on �Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�. So, I think I have the knowledge and access to be able to speak and write on this topic! |
I am interested on your PhD topic of ' Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�, I wonder if you could elaborate more on how EFL has affected the changes, if any, in Saudi Arabia, and in what sense? Also, what were your main findings or conclusions on the subject, so that we may benefit from the study? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MAstudent wrote: |
I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight.
Dearest Qos:
Sometimes I do wonder about your replies and the person who�s writing them. You seem to like to insult people a lot: real phoneys and identity crisis. |
On the other hand, I dont wonder about you guys, as you were very easy to peg, and your brother for that matter. Actually most people have you pegged by now. As for the "insult," what is so insulting about that? It is you who has come into this forum and has been testing the waters for some time now to see how we may contribute to your thesis, by provocation and the posting of similar topics. This is why I asked you to make your intentions known here. Having said that, I usually enjoy these conversations and debates you set forth.
| MAstudent wrote: |
| �Firstly, many people speak and write about Saudi Arabia and what�s happening in Saudi Arabia and they�re not Saudis. There is no law saying to speak about a country or a people you must be from them. If this was true then all the work done by sociolinguists would be a waste of time and irrelevant. The prerequisite to speak about any peoples or nations is knowledge of the people, knowledge of the culture, ability to question the peoples in questions, etc. No-one has ever mentioned what you are mentioning as a prerequisite. Perhaps you�ve never done a piece of academic research in your life, therefore don�t understand how things work! |
Now who is getting insulting? Actually I can understand your position better than most, but lack any perception or research abilities into people's words, so you can�t see that. I can also read through your sources as being slanted and biased on your own views of the world and Islam. If you contest that, as I anticipate you will, why don�t you tell us who these Saudis are that are "so unhappy" with their government if not the disenfranchised mutawas at the local masjid and so-called "scholars" of extremist Islamic magazines?
| Quote: |
| Why you believe that commenting on something of importance and about a place where your living is ridiculous is beyond me. If I were British, I couldn�t comment on the US, or if I was an American I couldn�t comment on Iraq? What type of logic do you have?! Anyone can comment upon anything they wish (freedom of speech, heard of that!) they just need to be able to support their arguments with evidence. People have the right to express their opinion and other people have the right to disagree. |
You can comment, as can anybody, and people can contest. It seems you dont like that, and just turn to insult and proclamation of your degrees. Furthermore, when in Saudi Arabia, most people would rather speak to Saudis about the state of internal affairs in their country. It is an insular country and most teenagers at the college level know these things you spell out in semi intellectual terms and piee toegther Islamic scholars and right wing think tanks, am odd combination as it is, and less than credible to people who know better. Maybe outside KSA your views and commentary would fly, but here, you have some competition with those that are Saudi. And you are British, since you seem to be confused, as reflected in your spelling.
| Quote: |
| Western journalists who comment on Saudi Arabia are normally non Saudis as are many ME political analysts, are you saying that they are ridiculous or that they have an identity crisis or are these terms just reserved for those whose views you don�t share?! Much of what you say shows you don�t possess the tools for an intellectual debate. |
Journalism is a business like any other, and easy to comprehend if you undertand the basics of the media. They can comment and they can be published if the publication prints their work. There is no illogic in that, thus no room for debate. Set forth something debatable and I may opt to participate.
| Quote: |
| Everything I say is based upon views held by Saudis. I have access to many Saudi�s (in and outside of my place of work) as well as I live amongst them, not behind some massive concrete wall built to keep the Saudis out. |
I think I have mor access than you do since my family are Saudi. So which Saudis are you speaking with? Once again, on internal issues, Imams dont count, they are obviously biased, so they cant comment on these topics objectively.
| Quote: |
| Rather, I have studied Islamic and ME studies at Postgraduate level and my Phd thesis is on �Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�. So, I think I have the knowledge and access to be able to speak and write on this topic! What about you!!! |
Good for you, I applaud you on your educational mix. I dont feel I need to defend myself as you do, but since you asked, I have a very similar educational background, as well as first hand experience living in the region for over a decade combined, as well as cultural knowledge and empathy. I am no 'foreigner' as you clearly are, so suffice it to say I am educated in the field and have more invested in this country than you do.
I dont want to forget the congratulations, since it seems terribly important to you, on the PhD research. It sounds interesting, however, its unfortunate you have so much of your ego invested in it. Maybe we should start calling you Dr. MAStudent, as you mentioned, so you feel better from now on, why wait until you earn it? I look forward, out of boredom and morbid curiosity to your entertaining posts based around your research and your ensuing pompous insults when people counter react. Carry on Dr. Sunshine! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr Gohlam
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 22
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I agree that we are all here as foriegners, as guests, and that we should not get involved in the actions of the Saudis, and their disputes. However, given that MAStudent is clearly a concerned and educated Muslim, I think his posts are logical and respectable. I do think he may be misguided in that he attempts to influence Saudis on their own issues. He seems to think of himself as a partipant of Saudi culture and society, rather than an observer. This is mistaken for having an "agenda" and may be due to the short comings of his self confidence in hiw own identity as someone pointed out. Its always better to stick to one's own culture and identity, before finger pointing at others. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I think his silence speaks louder than words here Mr. Gohlam. By the way, you are a very enigmatic character, you can go in many different directions at once. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MAstudent
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My silence means nothing but i have a life and i'm not a sad person stuck to their computer 24/7.
I will keep my mail short as I don�t have time to waste:
You�ve got me pegged, I�m so glad for you. Is this a threat, pity your just a mere teacher like me. I hope ur right about who I am otherwise u may be alienated two of your colleagues
QOS 'If you contest that, as I anticipate you will, why don�t you tell us who these Saudis are that are "so unhappy" with their government if not the disenfranchised mutawas at the local masjid and so-called "scholars" of extremist Islamic magazines?'
Actually my sources are very diverse. Saudi�s who are form all walks of life, rich, poor, religious, secular, atheist, etc. Also in a class discussion (al-yamamh college) a saudi student said to his classmates that he hates the Saudi scholars and is put of islam due to the fact that �the scholars seem to support the government in its oppression of the people and enable them to be above the law�. This was met with general agreement in the class. (the topic was �How Saudi can move ahead� chosen by the students)
'I think I have more access than you do since my family are Saudi. So which Saudis are you speaking with? Once again, on internal issues, Imams dont count, they are obviously biased, so they cant comment on these topics objectively.'
I�m glad that you have Saudi family and I�m glad I�m a mere foreigner. I don�t think that this by default allows you more access to Saudi�s. Rather it could make you less objective as you many think that the views of your relatives and extended family/tribe are the general views in the kingdom. This may not be the case at all.
Imams do count. They are part of the Saudi society, they are generally approved by the government and conform to the guidelines set out for them and they are listened to by many people in the community. However they cannot be the only source.
'I dont want to forget the congratulations, since it seems terribly important to you, on the PhD research. It sounds interesting, however, its unfortunate you have so much of your ego invested in it.'
The only reason I mentioned by degrees and studies is because I was attacked because I�m not a Saudi so how could I ever comment about what�s happening. In reality they don�t mean much to me, except they help me when applying for jobs esp in KSA as the are degree mad, whether the person they hire has a clue about what he/she is doing is not as important as having that bit of paper. Maybe that tells us something about the saudi mentality!
007 sorry my research is still in progress and i haven't reached any conclusions as of yet, however the effect of english on foreign cultures is well documented in the literature.
No that was some time out of my life that i wont get back! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh my I am so hurt by your personal attacks.
Your essay-like responses and political satire on a country not your own, shows you have plenty of time to be involved in others' business. I only hope you have DSL too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ALPH
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Calm down, MAstudent. I'd take them with a pound of NA CL. Their gift is hectoring. Theyre not in the least intereseted in 'ideas' unless they comply with their own. Their interest in argument is 'winning'. Mind you, there may be some fodder in that to chuck into your research. Often what we most need is right under our noses. Good luck with the research |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
battleshipb_b
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 189
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Re: An interesting article |
|
|
The winds of change are blowing. Having been here in the Kingdom for more than 10 years, I've seen a lot of changes. What really bugs me are my fellow Americans and their attitudes. They come here to make money, practice their deviant lifestyles and criticize. If you don't like the people, why are you here. Rome wasn't built in a day. This country has come a long way from the 1950s when it was basically feudal. Give the young a chance. Some of my former students are activists for social change but it won't come if they keep seeing us as representative of the Great Satan. Learn to enjoy the culture and its people. After all, we're not so different from one another underneath.
Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider.
Last edited by battleshipb_b on Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:08 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SCHUBERT
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 71
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Re: An interesting article |
|
|
| battleshipb_b wrote: |
| The winds of change are blowing. Having been here in the Kingdom for more than 10 years, I've seen a lot of changes. What really bugs me are my fellow Americans and their attitudes. |
And so say all of us |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: An interesting article |
|
|
| battleshipb_b wrote: |
The winds of change are blowing. Having been here in the Kingdom for more than 10 years, I've seen a lot of changes. What really bugs me are my fellow Americans and their attitudes. They come here to make money, practice their deviant lifestyles and criticize. If you don't like the people, why are you here. Rome wasn't built in a day. This country has come a long way from the 1950s when it was basically feudal. Give the young a chance. Some of my former students are activists for social change but it won't come if they keep seeing us as representative of the Great Satan. Learn to enjoy the culture and its people. After all, we're not so different from one another underneath.
Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider. |
I am not sure who you are talking to in this post, or if you are just talking. As Shubert aid, thats what all of us have been saying, although this was not the focus of this thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
