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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Everybbody can't issue a legal opinion in the US or the UK. You have to be a lawyer, and have studied. |
Why are you so certain that Islamic law exactly parallels British or US law? Your analogy seems a bit strawman-ish.
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| And of course your students would be contradcting themselves; if not everybody is allowed to issue a 'fatwa' they would not be allowed to issue the 'fatwa' that not everybody can issue one! |
Again, you seem to be making strawmen up just to knock them down.
Anyway, according to Wikipedia (not the most sophisticated source, I know), only those scholars who have attained the rank of mufti have the authority to issue fatwas.
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| In the early days of Islam, fatawa were pronounced by distinguished scholars to provide guidance to other scholars, judges and citizens on how subtle points of Islamic law should be understood, interpreted or applied. There were strict rules on who is eligible (see below) to issue a valid fatwa and who could not, as well as on the conditions the fatwa must satisfy to be valid. Today many Muslim countries (such as Egypt and Tunisia) have an official mufti position; a distinguished expert in the Sharia is named by the civil authorities of the country. |
Since most 'mutawwa' are nowhere near the rank of mufti, it is not correct to say that they can issue fatwas, which is what 007 said.
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| 'Fatwa', like 'jihad' is one of those words that has gained overtones divorced from the original meaning. |
A bit like 'mutawwa'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa |
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Muslim
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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MOD edit
please use private messages for such detailed religious discussions |
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MAstudent
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: |
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I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight.
Dearest Qos:
Sometimes I do wonder about your replies and the person who�s writing them. You seem to like to insult people a lot: real phoneys and identity crisis.
�I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight.�
Firstly, many people speak and write about Saudi Arabia and what�s happening in Saudi Arabia and they�re not Saudis. There is no law saying to speak about a country or a people you must be from them. If this was true then all the work done by sociolinguists would be a waste of time and irrelevant. The prerequisite to speak about any peoples or nations is knowledge of the people, knowledge of the culture, ability to question the peoples in questions, etc. No-one has ever mentioned what you are mentioning as a prerequisite. Perhaps you�ve never done a piece of academic research in your life, therefore don�t understand how things work!
�They should take a good hard look at the problems with their own nations and their own ethicity, and figure out their identity crisis instead of deflecting it on Saudi.�
Why you believe that commenting on something of importance and about a place where your living is ridiculous is beyond me. If I were British, I couldn�t comment on the US, or if I was an American I couldn�t comment on Iraq? What type of logic do you have?! Anyone can comment upon anything they wish (freedom of speech, heard of that!) they just need to be able to support their arguments with evidence. People have the right to express their opinion and other people have the right to disagree.
Western journalists who comment on Saudi Arabia are normally non Saudis as are many ME political analysts, are you saying that they are ridiculous or that they have an identity crisis or are these terms just reserved for those whose views you don�t share?! Much of what you say shows you don�t possess the tools for an intellectual debate.
Everything I say is based upon views held by Saudis. I have access to many Saudi�s (in and outside of my place of work) as well as I live amongst them, not behind some massive concrete wall built to keep the Saudis out.
�Just because Saudi is a Muslim nation in change, and they happen to be teaching ESL here, doesnt make them political analysts representative of the Saudi people, it does however make them ridiculous.�
Rather, I have studied Islamic and ME studies at Postgraduate level and my Phd thesis is on �Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�. So, I think I have the knowledge and access to be able to speak and write on this topic! What about you!!! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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And here was me thinking you were an "MA Student" |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| nyway, according to Wikipedia (not the most sophisticated source, I know), only those scholars who have attained the rank of mufti have the authority to issue fatwas. |
In your understanding, what is the rank of mufti??
In Islam, there is no authority to issue a fatwa! The fatwa is issued by any Islamic scholar, not necessarily working with the government, with the condition that he must hold the necessary Islamic knowledge (Fiqh), and the fatwa is not mandatory upon normal people.
From the above reference:
" the Fatwaa is issued by a person (or a board) having due knowledge and sincerity of heart; It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude; It is adequate with the needs of the contemporary world.
Today, with the existence of modern independent States, each with its own legislative system, and/or its own body of ulemas, each country develops and applies its own rules, based on its own interpretation of religious prescriptions.
Also,
"Fatāwa issued by Al-Azhar are not binding, but they are not just whistling in the wind either; individuals are free to accept them, but Islam recognizes that extenuating circumstances may prevent it. For example, it is the right of Muslims in France who object to the law banning the veil to bring it up to the legislative and judicial authorities. If the judiciary decides in favor of the government because the country is secular, they would be considered to be Muslim individuals acting under compelling circumstances." Otherwise, in his view, they would be expected to adhere to the fatwa." |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| MAstudent wrote: |
| ..I have studied Islamic and ME studies at Postgraduate level and my Phd thesis is on �Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�. So, I think I have the knowledge and access to be able to speak and write on this topic! |
I am interested on your PhD topic of ' Change in the ME with specific reference to Saudi Arabia and how EFL affects this�, I wonder if you could elaborate more on how EFL has affected the changes, if any, in Saudi Arabia, and in what sense? Also, what were your main findings or conclusions on the subject, so that we may benefit from the study? |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| MAstudent wrote: |
I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight.
Dearest Qos:
Sometimes I do wonder about your replies and the person who�s writing them. You seem to like to insult people a lot: real phoneys and identity crisis. |
On the other hand, I dont wonder about you guys, as you were very easy to peg, and your brother for that matter. Actually most people have you pegged by now. As for the "insult," what is so insulting about that? It is you who has come into this forum and has been testing the waters for some time now to see how we may contribute to your thesis, by provocation and the posting of similar topics. This is why I asked you to make your intentions known here. Having said that, I usually enjoy these conversations and debates you set forth.
| MAstudent wrote: |
| �Firstly, many people speak and write about Saudi Arabia and what�s happening in Saudi Arabia and they�re not Saudis. There is no law saying to speak about a country or a people you must be from them. If this was true then all the work done by sociolinguists would be a waste of time and irrelevant. The prerequisite to speak about any peoples or nations is knowledge of the people, knowledge of the culture, ability to question the peoples in questions, etc. No-one has ever mentioned what you are mentioning as a prerequisite. Perhaps you�ve never done a piece of academic research in your life, therefore don�t understand how things work! |
Now who is getting insulting? Actually I can understand your position better than most, but lack any perception or research abilities into people's words, so you can�t see that. I can also read through your sources as being slanted and biased on your own views of the world and Islam. If you contest that, as I anticipate you will, why don�t you tell us who these Saudis are that are "so unhappy" with their government if not the disenfranchised mutawas at the local masjid and so-called "scholars" of extremist Islamic magazines?
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| Why you believe that commenting on something of importance and about a place where your living is ridiculous is beyond me. If I were British, I couldn�t comment on the US, or if I was an American I couldn�t comment on Iraq? What type of logic do you have?! Anyone can comment upon anything they wish (freedom of speech, heard of that!) they just need to be able to support their arguments with evidence. People have the right to express their opinion and other people have the right to disagree. |
You can comment, as can anybody, and people can contest. It seems you dont like that, and just turn to insult and proclamation of your degrees. Furthermore, when in Saudi Arabia, most people would rather speak to Saudis about the state of internal affairs in their country. It is an insular country and most teenagers at the college level know these things you spell out in semi intellectual terms and piee toegther Islamic scholars and right wing think tanks, am odd combination as it is, and less than credible to people who know better. Maybe outside KSA your views and commentary would fly, but here, you have some competition with those that are Saudi. And you are British, since you seem to be confused, as reflected in your spelling.
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