Job Discussion Forums

[taikibansei]

You have me confused with Paulh. My concerns about Westgate are motivated by my "vulnerable" job situation?!! As Glenski (who knows who I am) can vouch for, I'm a tenured faculty member and an administrative head (dual role) here in Japan--how again am I at risk?

I guess we just have different ideas of a good job. See, when I read that teachers with "with at least a BA and less than 499 hours of classroom teaching experience (including non-EFL/ESL)" earn a crappy 260,000 yen a month, while teachers "with at least a BA and over 1000 hours of classroom teaching experience (including non-EFL/ESL)" earn just 275,000 yen, I think, "They really don't value teaching experience and/or education." (I also think, "Wow, what a crap salary.")

I see per their website that internet access is not available in Westgate housing, that overnight guests are banned, that the rent is much higher than normal (I'm renting a 3-bedroom house for what they charge per month), and I think, "Man, what a complete ripoff."

I read stuff on the Westgate website like the bit about the mandatory 9 hours on campus (with 7 classes per day), that the commute time is one hour on average, and I think, "Wow, 10-11 hours each day, almost five hours of it spent teaching (or "talking," as you put it)...that schedule would suck in the US, and it certainly sucks here in Japan."

I see bizarre comments on their website like this,

[taikibansei]

[Billy Chaka]

I'd like to thank Zorro (3) for his comments. It's really nice to get some information about Westgate from somebody who's actually worked there.

[Glenski]

[mineposa2]

I agree with Glenski that not enough is written about Westgate, as most of the questions I've come across on this forum deteriorate into bickering (ahem).

As far as the working conditions vs. pay, etc., it looks like Westgate is good for people with specific reasons for going to Japan--either for a short time or to get into the country.

As I said, I can't be in Japan very long because I'll be starting school again in the fall, and Westgate is the only place I found (and the only place suggested on this forum) with a short term contract that pays airfare.

From other people's postings its obvious that WC is not a good long term job for Japan and yes they have some ridiculous rules (the apartment thing) but what can you expect for a company that hires so many new employees so often---

my experience in Korea taught me, and it seems the same thing is true for Japan---that the industry is a business and actual learning of the language is not a priority. So a company with dubious teaching methods that likes to hire relatively inexperienced people can't be blamed...it's a company, this is capitalism, it's doing its job. I think it's up to the Japanese, and Korean, or other county's REAL educational establishment to ensure quality teaching. If universities are hiring companies like Westgate and it's not working, the real criticism needs to be on why the universities accept sub-par standards, and why the overall culture that permits the industry to be as it is to begin with. I'm not saying this a good thing, and I have plenty to gripe about, as someone who actually wanted my students to learn, with regards to the Korean system, and it appears Japan is the same way.

But probably almost everyone on this forum has a job because of this system...wonderful for me too, though I have 2 years EFL/ESL experience I don't have any "real" training, yet I am able to go experience a bit of another culture and learn about myself at the same time.

Yes, it appears that I should get paid more for my +1000 hours experience, but I really just want to live in Japan for three months, learn some Japanese, learn about Japan and save a bit of money before I start a career as a professional student in an expensive city (New York).

And another thing, I don't know that Westage seeks inexperienced people per se, I just think they're trying to be a good capitlaist institution and can provide a service, which real universities are willing to buy!, and keep profits up by not attracting you regular posters who know what you're doing and therefore demand a better salary, etc.

They hired me because I'm perfect for them: I have experience teaching in Asia and elsewhere, I'm passionate about learning (I think that came across in the interview) and I can't be a complete moron becasue they know I'm about to begin a Ph.D program....but, luckily for them, I'm in a position where I only want a short term shtick and they know that...and I know that, so I'm willing to accept conditions that for the long term or for others whose careers are ESL, just wouldn't be acceptable.

If I began demanding better conditions they'd just retract their offer and hire the next midly comptetent person that asked, because they can. And then they'll hire others who have no clue becasue the Japanese institution allows them to.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but there's so much criticism of the company (and it may be rightly so) but this company wouldn't still exist if conditions didn't allow it to.

As far as putting rules on the housing, Zorro, you mentioned that it's necessary because average age is 27---WHAT? Are most 27 year olds so immature these days they need rules for 15 year olds?

Thanks for the warning about the gaijin houses...I'm not sure what's worse, high rent and a curfew or living with f***king backpackers for three months.

What I think there needs to be more of on this forum is RECENT accounts from people who worked for Westgate, not quibbling about company policy (although this was enlightening as well). What turns up on the search is usually terse, ends in quibbling, or is informative but so old it can't be relied on very much.

But thank you to everyone for your input.

[JJJJJ]

Quoted italics are taken from recent postings of zorro.
"Wow. Thanks for all the attention. So now that we've established that I don't work for Westgate, and that I did not work in a management capacity, I'm being framed for being a 'Westgate addict'. Nice. In fact you're probably right. I am an addict. I can't get enough of them. This is the only place where I can get my hit."

The above remarks are defensive and sarcastic. This is supposed to be a forum for professional educators offering assistance to one another, not engaging one another in battle. I�m new as a blogger, but not as a reader; I�m disappointed at the level of immaturity I often see in the material presented by those who should be examples to their students, particularly when working abroad. When teaching overseas, we are not only judged on our ability as instructors, but our students, their parents, and other instructors in those countries often judge the West based on our performance, both within and outside of the classroom.

�Looks like I'll have to be more explicit with my information to help you to understand work with Westgate from a non-combatitive perspective.�

By, the way, note misspelling�this is not a good thing in an English teacher, particularly one who teachers EFL overseas.
It appears that you come from a place of defensiveness, as well as having a need to initiate combat. I�ll bet you could write from a neutral position and just state the facts if you wanted to.

Quote:
It's a mind numbing job they (Westgate) do, with simply horrible working conditions

�This is not true. The working conditions are fine. I've taught in two different universities. The first one - the hours were 09:00-18:00 (horrendously long for these pompous university 'professors' I know, but not for the 'idiots who can only get work with Westgate'). Within these compulsory office hours I taught between 5 and 7 40 minute classes per day. At the first university they were the same class, at the second I taught two different levels and so had two preps to do. On the days when I was teaching 5 classes, I had the famous 'English Challenge'. When any of the students actually came to these classes (40 mins same as above), we simply talked. This was not strenuous or taxing in any way shape or form and was (dare I say it) sometimes even �fun�. The physical conditions were brilliant at the places I worked. The Westgate teachers had their own LARGE office space with lots of ESL/EFL teaching materials (supplied by the demonic Westgate).� We even got our own desk which we could put our toys in...�

More sarcasm. Unnecessary in a professional forum.

� a LARGE office space, et al, must be an added benefit because the only space available while I was employed by Westgate other than our classrooms was our apartments. We were also provided absolutely nothing other than a manual containing the standard curriculum. If we didn�t bring our own laptops, we worked at Kinko�s at our own expense, and often paid for our own copies. I remember having to plead for copies in one appointed office or another, and to justify my need for them. This was pretty infuriating when I was simply trying to create an exciting and challenging English class.

Quote:
the very high rent

�81,000 per month. It is higher than if you were able to get your own apartment. But then getting your own apartment entails paying key money and rent up front. I believe that I�ve read before that this is around 5 months rent. Quick edjumicatted calculation (imagine my tongue out now�.) 5 x 55,000 (about the price of a reasonable place) = 275,000. 3 x 81,000 (Westgate provided Leopalace) = 243,000. Of course, on various other posts you will read that Westgate (who incidentally are the devil incarnate) are skimming about 25,000 yen per month off of each teacher's rent. The money for this they are putting towards funding third world poverty and starvation. I have never read any proof of these figures though so please take them with a pinch of salt.�

I�m not going to address the above re: the profits that Westgate is clearly making from the rent they charge their instructors. I am only going to note the continued use of sarcasm. Edjumicatted???

Quote:
the no absences ever rule

�Yes IMO this is a horrendous expectation of Westgates.�

[i]�Fancy requiring your employees to actually go to work. My word. What is the world coming to?�

An apostrophe required. Once again, sarcasm really isn�t necessary for one to make a point. It is also annoying and unprofessional!

Quote:
a glorified NOVA instructor (by your students).

�This is conjecture again. How does a student treat a teacher like a NOVA instructor? Could you elaborate on this please? My students treated me with the utmost respect (but I thought that was a cultural thing).�

If this is so and I have no reason to believe otherwise since I don�t know you, I would hope that you don�t address your students in the same condescending manner that you address your peers in this forum because you demonstrate an utter disrespect for those who disagree with you.

Quote:
Regardless, read through all the posts from the various Zorros--all written in the same tone and most (80%) gushing about the wonders of Westgate--from over the last three years.

�So I've been posting for three years. I didn't realise you were counting Taki, but thanks for the attention sweetheart.�

I guess after spending a little time on writing a response, and re-reading the above comment, the writer to whom I am responding is simply, and unfortunately, hopelessly obnoxious.

Quote:
That someone would get kicked off this forum for being abusive in his defense of an organization, then return and (yet again) be abusive in his defense of that same organization--.

�Again, this is simply not true. If I had been kicked off, do you think that Dave would have allowed me back? I know I was sneaky and added a (2) onto my second name, and then a (3) onto my third, but please give somebody some credit!!! I'm sure they would have seen through my evil guise MWAH HA HA HA HA HA....�

Proof of my earlier statement. Let me add �incredibly immature� to that description.

Quote:
�with that organization's defense being apparently his main (only?) reason for being here--well, if you're not management, then counseling may be an option

�You're hoping that people won't do a search and find other threads that I have posted on now aren't you? If anyone can be bothered to research this dull, uninteresting person then please feel free. You will see that I don't only post on Westgate threads. My, my, my.�

Yes, obnoxious and immature seem to be perfect descriptions.

Quote:
You, zorro, on the other hand, seem to relish some pseudo-superiority complex because you used to work there, yet your sharing of information seems to be at your whim, and sparsely at that. Just an observation. Why is it that you don't tell people more? You're a prime resource, but I would never go to you for info on Westgate.

�I hope that I have imparted some knowledge in the above. I'm sorry if at times I can't be bothered to answer trivialities about what the students eat for breakfast.

Gosh almighty, more sarcasm, I so want to believe that you have the ability to write without it, and without being defensive, or initiating an argument? Yet it becomes more apparent that this is too much to ask.

Come on Glenski. You know how this feels. Look back at the amount of times you have 'politely' pointed people to the search function of this website.

Quote:
I knew this, too, but was just quoting what another person who used to work there had told me. Sounds like a LONG day if you ask me, even with small classes.

�7 x 40 mins = 4 hours 40 mins of teaching. This is worst case scenario.
Probability.
5 x 40 mins = 3 hours 20 mins of teaching. + potentially 1 x 40 min English challenge.

Seriously. It is NOT a long day. Please believe me. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!�

I have never experienced a 40 or 50 minute class to be just that. First of all, a serious teacher is in class anywhere from 10-30 minutes prior to class (if the room is available) to set plans in order. After class, students often want to speak with the instructor. This may be just for a moment or two, or five or even 10, with regards to a point that was presented in class. That break time between classes passes quickly and a 40 minute class extends to 50, or 55 minutes, or even 60. Multiply that by 6 or 7 classes per day and you have 360 to 420 minutes (6 to 7 hours) with your students.

�As for JJJJJ's post. I've got to say that I'm very surprised to hear this. In the times that I was at Westgate nothing of the kind ever occurred. The stabbing business - Was this a Westgate teacher involved? If not, unfortunately Westgate don't��

(doesn�t)

��promise that you won't get stabbed when you come to Japan. There are some things that even the most controlling employers can not

cannot -- one word

control.�

Yes, it was a Westgate teacher. In fact, a couple of Westgate teachers/interns were involved in a drunken/drug-related brawl.

Quote:
It doesn�t take a college degree for one to realize that students are not going to learn English in the way it is presented by Westgate.

�Westgate use a mix of audiolingualism with communicative approaches to language learning. You could argue that audiolingualism is slightly old fashioned, but on the whole, there are useful elements that teachers use in mainstream EFL the world over (drilling being the main one). Communicative approaches are pretty current in the world of EFL. There is lots of groupwork, pairwork, free practice. This is the 'core' curriculum that Westgate provide.

provides.

Individual teachers will bring with them their own beliefs about teaching and what works best. They will inevitably adapt the 'core' curriculum and introduce ideas from different EFL methodologies. This then gives the Westgate package a mainstream EFL/eclectic approach to language teaching.�And when are teachers going to plan this eclectic approach, include their own beliefs and what works best, if not in more than a haphazard manner, than at home on their own time?

Quote:
Although a standard curriculum is in place, a competent instructor will have to devote time to preparation, a minimum of a couple of hours a night depending on the number of different courses one is assigned

�Actually it's the incompetent instructors who have to devote TWO HOURS a night prep for a forty minute class!!! You must be having a laugh here. Seriously. No wonder you thought it was slave labour!!!�

Once again, rude and unprofessional! Any competent and professional teacher spends at least an hour in prep for each hour (read 40-50 minutes) of class (one course). This is also a given in any educational program. If a Westgate teacher has two courses to teach in 6 or 7 hours, that is at least two hours of prep. Spending the time it takes to plan lessons falls within the parameters of being a conscientious and responsible teacher. Creating flashcards, tactile materials, visuals, realia, puzzles, and introducing other adjunct items to make class interesting, even exciting, is what a good teacher does and wants to do. By the way, I was quoting another�s comments re: slave labor. But, in fact, to the conscientious instructor�a 12-hour day was the norm when I was there. For those who didn�t (don�t) know any better, and/or who didn�t (don�t) care, then I understand why you might be laughing at a teacher�s need to prepare for class. You and Westgate were most likely perfectly-suited to one other.

To anyone who has had the perseverance to read this through to the end because the topic caught your eye, maybe you were rejected by Westgate, thank your lucky stars!!!

I've finished....

So have I.

[zorro (3)]

JJJJJ,

I'm sorry we're not friends.

I'm sure we'd get along like a house on fire if we ever met!!

Good luck with your future endeavours.

Zorro (3).

[zorro (3)]

Good luck with your Westgate experience.
Honestly, it's not that bad!!
If you have any more direct questions about them, then I can try to help you. Do you know where you're going yet?
One really good thing is the other people that you'll meet in the first few days. If you want to make friends to travel around and have beere with, make sure you get people's e-mail/phone numbers at the initial training. There'll probably also be other teachers who live in the same apartment block as you from Westgate (could be good or bad....)

I'm still in contact with quite a few of the people who I met while working there, and I even found the lovely lady who is sitting beside me now (fellow Westgater). Perhaps that's why they will always have a place in my heart.

I'm excited for you. After all, everything new is an adventure.

Good luck,

Zorro (3) and Mrs. Zorro (3)

[Glenski]

JJJJJ,
Even I (probably one of the most pedantic people here) will caution you about spelling and grammar. This is a discussion forum, and even though some of us do our best to type without errors, it's not a peer-reviewed manuscript. Let those things go. People type here when they are tired (or worse), and even I let such things go most of the time.

Besides, you made a few blunders yourself.

[anne_o]

I'm considering working for Westgate and was interested in hearing some replies to the op's legitimate questions.......once again........I HAD TO SORT THROUGH EVERYONES PETTY ARGUMENTS TO FIND ANYTHING OF VALUE!
What is wrong with everyone? It seems that several people on this thread have nothing better to do with their time but pick apart each other's messages on this board.
GET A LIFE! I mean a bit of the witty sarcasm is entertaining, but on this board ot really gets in the way.
Thanks to those of you who actually had something to offer.

[canuck]

[JJJJJ]

Zorro (3)

Thank you!!!

I just had to believe that there was more to your Van Cliburn-like fingers
and quick-thinking mind that so quickly pour out voluminous responses on this forum. You do have heart (not the organic singular but the poetic)!!

You're right, we'd most likely never get along, AND a little kindness goes a very long way!!!

[JJJJJ]

Glenski

You're right, I did make some errors. I was concerned when I pressed the "submit" key sometime in the middle of the night. I noted those mistakes when I reviewed the following day.

If you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask if you always use the world "blunder" to point out another's mistakes. Would you use that word with your students? The words "error" and "mistake" are softer. Personally, I have never met anyone who has ever used that word, professionally or otherwise, unless they were angry. And then, it was only with someone they knew intimately, or with someone for whom they held absolutely no respect.

I guess the bottom line is that after being in the field for nearly two decades, and having served in a number of countries, I feel that I have something to offer those who are entering the field, and even to those who have been in it a while. I also have a lot to learn. With that said, I would like for us to be respectful of one another. The fact that we are online and don't have to face one another gives us a lot of latitude to be more free-wheeling than might be deemed appropriate if we were sitting face-to face. I would simply like to see us behave like the professionals we are, even while online.

[Glenski]

I used the word blunder specifically because you had written so strongly, yet made mistake of your own. It was not meant to be soft. It was also not meant a post that was meant to do more than constructively criticize. I am not a member of the language/spelling police here, as I think I noted, but there comes a time when certain things should be pointed out. I just don't believe in doing it in an overly harsh manner. I hope you can understand.

If you review the majority of my posts, I think you'll find that I try to post professionally. No name-calling or cursing. However, when the situation calls for it, which means when I'm attacked or flamed violently, I can get down and dirty with the best of them, but I still try to avoid that.

[JJJJJ]

Glenski

Re: "Blunder"
Forgive me for nitpicking, but I read from your message that your response was NOT intended to be soft, yet was NOT intended to be more than constructive criticism. Which is it??? While constructive criticism isn't necessarily soft, it clearly and concisely states the facts; it also does not have to be rude!!! In fact, it most definitely should not be rude!!! There should be no emotion involved in negative critique. Personally,I read your statement as a contradiction. In fact, it was harsh, and went beyond constructive criticism because it was apparently written in anger, or so it seemed.

As for being "overly harsh," if you don't think using the word "blunder" is "overly harsh," I can't imagine the type of language that occurs in your classroom between you and your students. My original message to which your response was written, citing my blunders, was not written to you, so I can't imagine why you found it necessary to get "down and dirty." No one attacked you. I thought that I was simply stating the facts.