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Yawarakaijin
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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This is completely typical. Have you never had a conversation with a Japanese old guy? They all say crap like this, even the nice ones, and even the open minded ones, and even the ones who've been overseas and have experience with foreigners. Political correctness is totally alien to them.
That said, he kind of has a point in that Japan doesn't have the same age-old conflicts with the Islamic world that the Judeo-Christian west has, and that does give them a different take on middle east policy. Not that it excuses his blatant racially charged comments. He needs to express himself much better if what I said is what he is actually trying to get at.
I have actually met Aso and heard him speak, and he's not this uncouth all the time. He struck me as "just like all the other ojisan." I think Japan needs someone who is NOT just another crusty ojisan as foreign minister, however... |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| This is completely typical. Have you never had a conversation with a Japanese old guy? They all say crap like this... |
Yes, but this is not your typical old fart from the inaka with the typical backward ideas. This is a FOREIGN minister. Comments like this from a foreign minister in any other democracy would almost certainly result in resignation, or at very least shameful scandal, followed by an official apology. In Japan, the comment is covered by the media like just another comment, if covered at all. I'm not at all surprised that this story was filed by Reuters. For the Japanese press, such behavoir is normal.
I think this sort of comment is interesting because it shows just how deeply racism is embedded in Japan, and that such beliefs are held at the highest levels of government. Based on my hundreds of conversations with Japanese folk of all walks of life (not just old guys), I used to hear these sorts of comments all the time, usually much worse. And the disturbing thing was that they weren't even aware that their racism was racism, or that it had offended me as a foreigner. Go into any bookstore and you'll find an entire section of books dedicated to how great/superior Japan is (nihonjinron 日本人論). Surely, no other nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself?
And as the Reuters story says, this comment is not an isolated case. The Japanese health minister's reference to women as "birth-giving machines" - can you imagine if the Surgeon General in the US said this? Or my federal health minister in Canada. Their teary-eyed resignation would be on the desk of the president/PM the following morning. |
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AndyH
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 417
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| When the Japanese REALLY care about their relations with their neighbors, they will quit electing politicians who put their feet in their mouths when it comes to issues like "comfort women", etc. |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| Go into any bookstore and you'll find an entire section of books dedicated to how great/superior Japan is (nihonjinron 日本人論). Surely, no other nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself? |
I don't know, from what I hear from friends in China and Korea, it's pretty much par for the course. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
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So now that we have his permission to do so, if I ever meet Aso on the street, can I refer to him as "kiiroi-jin?"
Unbelievable! |
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ShapeSphere
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| shuize wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| Go into any bookstore and you'll find an entire section of books dedicated to how great/superior Japan is (nihonjinron 日本人論). Surely, no other nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself? |
I don't know, from what I hear from friends in China and Korea, it's pretty much par for the course. |
Agreed with shuize. I spent three years in China and the level of self-praise was astonishing.
I have noticed in the English versions of Japan Times, Yomiuri, etc., that they do actually mention corruption, slush funds, WWII crimes to quite some extent. They seem to acknowledge some problems and can lay off the back-slapping at times. Whether this happens in the Japanese versions, I don't know, as I am not yet fluent in the language. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| ShapeSphere wrote: |
| shuize wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| Go into any bookstore and you'll find an entire section of books dedicated to how great/superior Japan is (nihonjinron 日本人論). Surely, no other nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself? |
I don't know, from what I hear from friends in China and Korea, it's pretty much par for the course. |
Agreed with shuize. I spent three years in China and the level of self-praise was astonishing. |
I'll amend my above comment: no other free democratic nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself. But even in China, it's little more than one dimensional CP-approved Maoist doctrine. Japan's genre of 日本人論 is vast, branching off into social sciences, hard scienes, art, culture and every realm of life.
| ShapeSphere wrote: |
| I have noticed in the English versions of Japan Times, Yomiuri, etc., that they do actually mention corruption, slush funds, WWII crimes to quite some extent. They seem to acknowledge some problems and can lay off the back-slapping at times. Whether this happens in the Japanese versions, I don't know, as I am not yet fluent in the language. |
I dunno about this. I was a semi-regular reader of the J-Times and Yomiuri in my 4 years in the country, and the only real searious critical discourse was found in the foreign supplements and letters to the editor section. In my 4 years of reading these rags, I never saw a focus story on the issue of Ainu, Burakumin, justice system flaws, or just about any other relevant human rights issue. But I guess after 3 years in China, the Japan Times would come off as Pulitzer-winning journalism.
The bottom line is Japan's foreign minister, along with other cabinet ministers make comments like without much reaction from the domestic media. The fact that they say these things in public before a scrum of journalists really says something about the problem of racism in this country. |
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ShapeSphere
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| I'll amend my above comment: no other free democratic nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself. But even in China, it's little more than one dimensional CP-approved Maoist doctrine. Japan's genre of 日本人論 is vast, branching off into social sciences, hard scienes, art, culture and every realm of life. |
That's a good point and my experience of Japan is limited. (I arrived in Aug 2006). There's plenty of BS here in Japan. I am aware of it.
| ShapeSphere wrote: |
| I have noticed in the English versions of Japan Times, Yomiuri, etc., that they do actually mention corruption, slush funds, WWII crimes to quite some extent. They seem to acknowledge some problems and can lay off the back-slapping at times. Whether this happens in the Japanese versions, I don't know, as I am not yet fluent in the language. |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| I dunno about this. I was a semi-regular reader of the J-Times and Yomiuri in my 4 years in the country, and the only real serious critical discourse was found in the foreign supplements and letters to the editor section. In my 4 years of reading these rags, I never saw a focus story on the issue of Ainu, Burakumin, justice system flaws, or just about any other relevant human rights issue. |
Again, you will have read more and your experience is greater than mine.
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| But I guess after 3 years in China, the Japan Times would come off as Pulitzer-winning journalism. |
 Yes. You're spot on there.
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| The bottom line is Japan's foreign minister, along with other cabinet ministers make comments like without much reaction from the domestic media. The fact that they say these things in public before a scrum of journalists really says something about the problem of racism in this country. |
I wouldn't dispute racism exists here, it is well-documented. Aso's comments were asinine, but politicians do seem to have a habit across the world of behaving in the same manner. It may stem from the simple fact that they spend almost their entire lives in the spotlight. Any gaffe is there for all to see, hear and read. But, it's still a gaffe. |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| The fact that they say these things in public before a scrum of journalists really says something about the problem of racism in this country. |
What other country in the world is setting a good example for Japan to follow? And, don't say "we're only talking about Japan here" because, if xenophobia is a world problem, then, at worst we can only say that Japan exhibits it's own special type of xenophobia. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| no other free democratic nation has such a vast literature in praise of itself. |
Oh, I don't know. Hasn't GW contributed enough manure to that heap in the past few years?
In a related vein, did you see the program on TV the other night? They were showing the plane that crashed in the Potomac River, and when a woman fell out of the safety harness provided by a helicopter, one of the rescued men leaped back into the icy waters to rescue her (not a firefighter). Reagan's comment was sickening to me. He said something about this guy (an obvious hero, no doubt there) showing once again "AMERICAN" courage. Hey, the guy didn't have to be American to do what he did. What other sort of courage would you have in this sort of situation? Seemed more of a political statement for the sake of the country than for the moment, to me. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| southofreality wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| The fact that they say these things in public before a scrum of journalists really says something about the problem of racism in this country. |
What other country in the world is setting a good example for Japan to follow? And, don't say "we're only talking about Japan here" because, if xenophobia is a world problem, then, at worst we can only say that Japan exhibits it's own special type of xenophobia. |
Your argument is: all other countries' political leaders exhibit bad behavoir, therefore, Japan (re: the issue at hand) is just like every other nation, therefore, no worse, just different. Your sort of committing a two wrongs non-sequitur in reverse: two wrongs = right. I'm sorry, your aces just got cracked, Mr. Ungar.
Secondly, this thread is about Japan, and only Japan; to be exact, it's about the foreign minister's comment and the comments made by some of his cabinet colleagues in the past. If you want to broaden the debate into a comparative analysis of racism in the global context, be my guest, but let's do one thread at a time, ok? (These threads tend to spin out of control and by the time you reach the 4th page, you forget what the original thread was). All I said was that this Aso comment, along with a number of other comments by cabinet ministers in Japan tells us something about the degree of racism in this country. The domestic media's response (or lack thereof) tells us something. It tells us that racism and other kinds of discrimination are not only acceptable - but people at the highest ranks of power seem oblivious to it. In saying this, I'm in no way implying that other nations are without their flawed political leaders. Stick with the issue, please. |
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sidjameson
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 629
Location: osaka
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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What's racist about the guys comments? Really, all it comes down to is that Americans have such a bad image in the middle east that now anybody white going in there to mediate is at a disadvantage. Pretty true I'd say.
Only by listening to the speech in Japanese could anybody pass comment on whether there was any racism and then I doubt it. He has talked about people's ability to get a certain job done nothing else. Why is that racist?
In Britain social services specifically hire black social workers to work in some inner city areas. They do it because they are better suited at the job.
Political correctness is such an all pervasive force now that you can't make any reference to skin color at all without being charged. Give me the real world any day.
There I have said it now..........Oh no, I'm a racist. |
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Yawarakaijin
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't call the man racist for pointing out the fact that perhaps Japan has cleaner hands in regard to the region but I find his need to resort to the blonde hair, blue eyes remark tactless and ignorant. Since when are all westerners blonde haired and blue eyed? At best he comes across as a pathetic excuse for a foreign affairs minister and at worst I would say his remarks offer a disturbing insight into this man's character. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| sidjameson wrote: |
What's racist about the guys comments? Really, all it comes down to is that Americans have such a bad image in the middle east that now anybody white going in there to mediate is at a disadvantage. Pretty true I'd say.
Only by listening to the speech in Japanese could anybody pass comment on whether there was any racism and then I doubt it. He has talked about people's ability to get a certain job done nothing else. Why is that racist?
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Aso's comment in the original Japanese:
「米国人にできないことを日本がやっている。青い目で金髪だったら多分駄目よ。われわれは幸いにして黄色い顔をしている。そこ（中東）で搾取をしてきたとか、ドンパチ、機関銃撃ったとか一回もない」
You are probably correct that what he was trying to get at was that America has lost trust with many in the Middle East, and the American agenda has come under much scrutiny, while Japan is in a different position and can perhaps make better progress. But couching it in terms of race is both factually inaccurate (in that there are many Americans who are not blond and many Arabs who are, and any progress Japan makes will not be due to their complexion), and offensive to Americans and people from other societys where the idea is held that using race to explain issues which are actually cultural/political/historical and not racial is dangerous (as history has shown us it is). |
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