Job Discussion Forums

[leeroy]

Well, two, maybe...

So, firstly - we take a guy, stick him on a plane, then throw him out (with a parachute!) above the village of a small Andean hill tribe - which happen to speak Oaxacheuxaztl. He doesn't speak any of it, and they speak no English. It's miles away from anywhere, and the poor bugger's gonna have to live there until we pick him up a year later.

Situation two, is where we take the same guy and enroll him in Oaxacheuxaztl classes for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week (in New York) with some of the best linguistics experts known to man. He has every language learning resource possible available, combined with a mixture of teaching styles.

A year later, which one would be more communicatively competent in Oaxacheuxaztl?

[Lynn]

situation #1

[leeroy]

Sorry Lynn, but you're too verbose. Could you simplify your answer for me?

[Lynn]

I say situation #1 because of the time frame. Had it been one month, I would have said situation #2. I say this from experience. I was lucky enough to go to a fairly small town in Japan as an exchange student many years ago. (1994-95) I was totally immeresed in the language. Maybe Japanese can speak English now, but back in the day, they couldn't and weren't the least bit interested. My Japanese language skills skyrocketed. I leanred so much of the language through context. Many times I didn't even know the English equivalent, but I fully understood the meaning and was able to use it in context as well.

I do realize, however, that this may be something personal. I am the type of person who can understand and implement ideas without an explanation. Geez, that sounds really strange...hmm..let me try an example.

I remember singing a song at karaoke that had been a hit in the late 80s. All my Japanese girlfriends shrieked, " Natsukashii!!!". I didn't know the meaning and I coudn't find it in my dictionary. The word came up over and over. I realized they usually said it when something reminded them of good times in the past. I came to think of it as, "oh!!! I remember that!" while flapping my arms wildly. After coming back to the states, I often found myself wanting to cry out, "oh natsukashii".. Anyway, make a long story short, I found out through a friend of a friend that the "natsukashii" translates to "nostalgic" in English.

If someone had told me that if I want to say, "nostalgic" in Japanese, I should say, "natsukashii", I doubt I ever would have used it, and I probably would have forgotten it anyhow.

[denise]

Lynn--why, thank you! I have now learned a new word in Japanese. I bet that had I needed to say "nostalgic" & consulted my dictionary, I would have forgotten it three seconds later. Thanks to your story, I may actually remember it! (Brings my vocabulary up to about eight words now... )

I agree that situation #1 would produce a more communicatively competent speaker. The learner in #2 would be able to analyze the language more and would perhaps know more of the grammar rules, but would not likely have the fluency that person #1 would have.

Aaaah, but now going back to Lynn's "native speaker" thread--obviously this mystery language learner is not a native speaker, but assuming that eventually both learners--situations 1 and 2--reached the same level of proficiency, which one would we want as a teacher? Once #2 acquired (however long it might take...) the same fluency as #1, I'd probably want to learn from #2.

d

[FGT]

What if the guy in situation 1 is an EFL teacher? Will he insist on teaching the villagers his (international) languge? Will/would he be successful?

[Roger]

It is possible, and in the case of many native English speakers totally likely - that the guy in situation no. 1 would only survive because the natives would feed him throughout his ordeal there without him acquiring more than rudiments of their language.
It's just as likely he would become totally bilingual because he would learn to rely on his own resources to communicate with the locals. In this case, his grasp of their language would probably become perfect, or almost so.
This latter would be more realistic a scenario if the guy did not know he was going to be taken back to where he came from.
But, as Denise said, whether he would be the ideal teacher for others back in his "civilised" place is another matter.
The main point to emphasise here is that in today's classrooms students are not challenged enough to succeed. In "communicative approach"-teaching situations teachers rely on textbooks and bilingual dictionaries for the student to get to the bottom of the semantics.
Students don't have to work out their solutions - and that's why so many never get very far!

[Wolf]

I think situation #1 as well. Many teachers always claim that one year abroad (in an enviornment where a foreign langauge must be spoken) can be better than years of even good instruction (or decades of bad instruction.)

Roger - I don't know about you, but if I were stuck in the place for a year with no one to talk to in my own langauge, I'd learn the local langauge out of loneliness and boredom if nothing else - even if my basic needs were being met without it.

[Dr.J]

1 will be better at communicating, but there is always the risk that you only learn the survival basics and you fossilize simple mistakes. I've seen several people who've been in Japan for ten years or more and still have terrible Japanese pronunciation. They don't even try anymore.

[denise]

Dr. J--

Good point, but I think the difference is that in Japan foreigners don't really need to learn Japanese to survive. There is enough help available in English that it's not a matter of survival--more a matter of how much they want to "fit in" or even just challenge themselves. (I don't mean to imply that this is a good thing--quite the contrary! I think it is very unfortunate that so many people don't make an effort, but the reality is that they don't need to.)

Our hypothetical guy, however, doesn't have the "luxury" of people trying to help him in English, having English signs/menus/etc. Thus, I'd be willing to bet he'd get beyond just bumbling through the basics with poor pronunciation, syntax, etc.

d

[Gordon]

You`re right on D about how it isn`t necessary to know Japanese to get by in Japan. With enough sign language and a few words, you can scrape by. Infortunately your time here will not be very enjoyable.

[Dr.J]

That wasn't really my point. I was saying that perfect communicative competence still leaves gaps; for instance, third person 's' (he she it plays)in English has virtually no communicative use at all, so the traveller could theoretically be excellent at communicating yet still make simple mistakes.

Of course, I'd rather be 1 than 2.

[denise]

Ooops--didn't mean to misread you, Dr. J. I agree with you, in fact.

d