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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Why Japan? |
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Wow I don't even know where to start with Gypsy Rose... I think I will leave that alone and just respond to the OP.
| Chris_Travel_the_world wrote: |
If you were a Japanese studies major, then why did you study Japanese studies in the first place? Kinda useless isn't it?
Don't get me wrong! I love Japan! I have a lot of friends and am having a blast! I'm now in the process debating over whether or not to stay for another year and I am wondering if I hadn't had the Japanese girlfriend if it would be a logical choice to come here.
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"Why Japan?" is a question I get asked all the time, by Japanese and non-Japanese alike. For a long time I pretty much had no answer. But after a lot of reflection, I now have a clearer understanding of the underlying motivations behind what, at the time, just felt like the right things to do. I tend to live my life by following my instincts, and only really asking why later on.
For me it was, from the beginning, about looking for something interesting and challenging and different. It started with the language. I wanted something very different from English, and something that would really push me to work hard. Both my parents were Asian Studies majors and focused on Chinese. I stubbornly didn't want to study exactly what they had studied, but was still interested in East Asia. So there was Japanese. Once I started, it was like dominoes. I felt I couldn't quit before I had really gotten to a satisfying level or else it would have all been a waste of time. So I kept with it. I studied abroad here and had a good time. Then when it came time to graduate, again I felt I had to do something with what I'd learned so I got a job in Japan.
It was never really about Japan. I like Japan, and I find the culture and language interesting of course. But no more so than any number of rich cultures around the world. I just happened to end up here. It was about challenging myself intellectually and emotionally. I have always been a very free thinking, outspoken person. Japanese culture has helped me learn how to stop and really attune myself to what others around me are thinking, feeling and saying even if they are not being straightforward about it. I have quieted down a lot. Studying Japanese has humbled me, which is what I wanted. Schoolwork always came easily to me, but I didn't want to only do things that were easy. I wanted to have to struggle or how could I feel like I deserved to be proud of my accomplishments?
Japanese culture is truly, profoundly different from the one I grew up in, and immersing myself in it has let me step back and get perspective. I have made some progress in learning to think outside the cultural and linguistic box, so to speak. That's what I wanted out of the experience and I got it. I would have had an equally valuable experience in China or Africa or any number of other places, I am sure, but I ended up in Japan and I tried to get the most out of my experience here.
Ironically, now that I have been here a few years and become fluent in the language, I feel like it's time to move on. I plan to leave within a year and I don't see myself coming back long-term. Sure, you can say that my Japanese ability will go to waste, but I don't think it was a waste at all. I wanted to study Japan for what it would teach me about language, people, and myself, not for anything specifically Japanese. I of course there is more I cold learn from Japan - there are an infinity of possible experiences left to be had here. But I am ready for the next challenge and the next adventure. |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| The original poster said that most Japanese people know and care very little about traditional culture. What kind of culture are you talking about? I can agree with you (to a certain extent) if you are talking about ikebana, tea ceremony, wearing kimonos, zazen, old movies by Ozu, noh, haiku. Of course most people KNOW about such things, but care about them? That's another story. But Japan is a modern country with busy, busy people. I do think Westerners often expect all Japanese to be involved in at least one traditional pursuit, and are disappointeded when they find out otherwise. But that's our hang up, not theirs. |
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Gypsy Rose Kim
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno what to tell you guys. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and I think we all know that the media and politicians do not necessarily accurately represent the people of any country.
Japanese are extremely creative, despite all the problems with their education system and the focus on conforming (on the surface, but underneath, everyone is free to think and dream their own stuff).
I'm not some goofy apologist. But I happen to think that if I have to live among any group of people, I choose them. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I have to think that some of your perceptions reflect only how Japanese people interact with you, GRK, and aren't necessarily accurate when it comes to their relationships with each other.
The idea that Japanese people aren't often emotionally manipulative in particular I think is inaccurate- a lot of subtle manoeuvring goes on within Japanese families, maybe not a whole lot more than in other countries, but it's certainly an aspect of life here- think mothers-in-law, pressure on kids to study etc.
The topic of nosy neighbours and relatives in rural communities in particular is something that you must have noticed in your time here- perhaps not directed at you personally, but it's definitely an issue. |
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gaijin4life
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Westside of the Eastside, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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To the OP:
The first time I came to Japan, I had an absolute blast. I was living in Tokyo most of the time and loved every minute of it. From the moment I arrived it was `love at first sight` - if you know what I mean, - no culture shock, just complete, willing immersion. Looking back now, I think I tried to become a little bit Japanese - or really tried to fit in anyways.
This time, my third visit, the gleam is fading. Admittedly I am older and if not wiser, perhaps a little more cynical. Also I have spent this time, working in small cities which although have been very beautiful and scenic, ofcourse have had a totally different vibe to the big cities.
I have also had the unfortunate experience of spending some time working for a dodgy language school which was concerned completely with making as much money as possible off its students rather than good teaching. I hated the pressure to sell and coercion/manipulation that went on although I liked the teaching and the students.
I have met amazing, friendly, kind, very intelligent Japanese people as well as the others; I dont think Japan is any different to any other country in that regard. And I have definitely met more cool people than not. - Those obachans in the supermarket though ... hmmmm, - Im tempted to believe that was personal !!! Many seemed to have absolutely no regard for other people, they would push in front; cut off; do basically it seemed whatever they wanted .. !  I also find it really hard to deal with the way kids are treated - they are so indulged and spoiled - what is up with that !!!
Overall, Im thinking my time in Japan is coming to an end. There are other amazing countries out there - like my own, which I didnt appreciate nearly enough my first time here.
Japan is an amazing country with amazing culture and traditions but the less than appealing aspects of serious conservativism; zenophobia and particularly the superficiality are getting to me. But, if you are willing to overlook all this, are young, preferably male, and are basically `the right kind of gaijin` you will have a good time here. Enjoy it while it lasts. In my opinion, its not like the `real world` ..
Peace out  |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijin4life wrote: |
| But, if you are willing to overlook all this, are young, preferably male, and are basically `the right kind of gaijin` you will have a good time here. Enjoy it while it lasts. In my opinion, its not like the `real world` .. |
What the hell? "preferably male"??? What kind of bullshit is that? And what could you possibly mean by "the right kind of gaijin"??
And, exactly, is the real world? Oh please enlighten us. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Just to chime in and compare and contrast with the US as another foreign culture... 
| Glenski wrote: |
Honest and dependable?
Have you read any local news lately? |
I'd hazard a guess and say that if we're talking gross generalisations then they're more honest and dependable in general than the same general population in most other countries I've been in.
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They're efficient and organized?
Japanese? Who are you kidding?
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Actually, in a way I sort of agree with that one. There is a certain style and efficiency to the madness of Japanese organisation. Again, to engage in some gross generalisations, I'd say they're far, far better than the average American. Americans honestly drive me further up the wall than the Japanese ever did as far as pissing about goes. And the Japanese mess about with such breathtaking style.
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They have impeccable manners and are very welcoming to foreigners.
Manners can be tatemae, as can the welcome to foreigners. You really need to learn a LOT more about this, but sadly the only way is through experience.
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This one I agree with glenski on. Manners are very much a matter of social situation. If you're part of the group then manners are great. If you're not then you may as well be dirt. The US is surprisingly similar in the way it works, although the points where it kicks in and drops out are different.
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They do their best and are focused on the process rather than simply the end results or social posturing?
Not sure what you mean here. Focusing on the process usually takes 100 times longer than what many others would do to get those end results. Social posturing exists big time here, in case you didn't know.
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This one I find really funny: I always felt that the Japanese were too process orientated. Then I went to the US. If ever there was a country that focussed on process over result, to the detriment of both, the US would have to be it. So on this one, I have to disagree: the Japanese have a (mostly) healthy balance between process and result IMO.
Let the arguments begin. |
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gaijin4life
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Westside of the Eastside, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| gaijin4life wrote: |
| But, if you are willing to overlook all this, are young, preferably male, and are basically `the right kind of gaijin` you will have a good time here. Enjoy it while it lasts. In my opinion, its not like the `real world` .. |
What the hell? "preferably male"??? What kind of *beep* is that? And what could you possibly mean by "the right kind of gaijin"??
And, exactly, is the real world? Oh please enlighten us. |
Ok, a little clarification. Imho, as a generalisation, it seems that often, it is somewhat easier for a guy over here than a gal - a generalisation though based on observations.. Esp. in smaller cities it seems...
`The right kind of gaijin` - by this I mean, a sort of person who a) fits in with the stereotypical image many Japanese people (esp. many eikaiwa employers) have of foreigners, - that they are all supa-genki and natural entertainers, and who b) are only too willing to fit in w J culture.
By `the real world` Im talkn about the many (mostly Western perhaps..) countries that not only have labor laws but enforce them too; have overtime that is paid; anti-discrimination laws that are in place and enforced and are places where sexism, racism and other kinds of discrimination are called just that, not `part of the culture.`
Peace out,
g4l |
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jademonkey
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, Japanese are real people with all the good and bad things that comes with that.
I've found myself loving Tokyo (since I've lived there for 4 years) and will most definitely move back there in the next few years, probably a cheap part of Shinjuku ward.
However, some things also rile me, but that happens in my home country too.
I look at it like this: there are plenty of things worthy of valuing in life, but you have to make a choice. You can't live in Japan and another country at the same time, so make an informed decision and see what happens. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijin4life wrote: |
| kdynamic wrote: |
| gaijin4life wrote: |
| But, if you are willing to overlook all this, are young, preferably male, and are basically `the right kind of gaijin` you will have a good time here. Enjoy it while it lasts. In my opinion, its not like the `real world` .. |
What the hell? "preferably male"??? What kind of *beep* is that? And what could you possibly mean by "the right kind of gaijin"??
And, what exactly, is the real world? Oh please enlighten us. |
Ok, a little clarification. Imho, as a generalisation, it seems that often, it is somewhat easier for a guy over here than a gal - a generalisation though based on observations.. Esp. in smaller cities it seems... |
God, that is such BS. Have you even been in Japan as a woman? I didn't think so. You have no clue what it's like so why even comment?
| Quote: |
| `The right kind of gaijin` - by this I mean, a sort of person who a) fits in with the stereotypical image many Japanese people (esp. many eikaiwa employers) have of foreigners, - that they are all supa-genki and natural entertainers, and who b) are only too willing to fit in w J culture. |
I think it's valid to say you'll fare much better if you're upbeat, outgoing, and adaptable. I think that's true pretty much anywhere, and certainly true when trying to fit into a foreign culture. But if you think you need to be a dancing gaijin monkey to get people to accept you here, I don't envy whatever your life is in Japan.
| Quote: |
| By `the real world` Im talkn about the many (mostly Western perhaps..) countries that not only have labor laws but enforce them too; have overtime that is paid; anti-discrimination laws that are in place and enforced and are places where sexism, racism and other kinds of discrimination are called just that, not `part of the culture.` |
If you're saying Japan is sexist, racist, has slack labor laws, etc, why are you preceding that by saying "enjoy it while it lasts"?
Your post made so little sense in so many ways... |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I'd hazard a guess and say that if we're talking gross generalisations then they're more honest and dependable in general than the same general population in most other countries I've been in. |
And these countries were?! I think Japan ties with Hong Kong and China for the amount of times I have beeen lied to, when obviously something couldn't be true  (yet the other person kept insisting it was). Taiwan, strangely enough seems to be slightly different.
| Quote: |
| Actually, in a way I sort of agree with that one. There is a certain style and efficiency to the madness of Japanese organisation. Again, to engage in some gross generalisations, I'd say they're far, far better than the average American. Americans honestly drive me further up the wall than the Japanese ever did as far as pissing about goes. And the Japanese mess about with such breathtaking style. |
Mystified on this one. If I had to look at the way I do things versus the average Japanese for my job, I prefer saving the time and not staying late just because other people in the company will talk if I go home earlier than the boss  .
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| This one I agree with glenski on. Manners are very much a matter of social situation. If you're part of the group then manners are great. If you're not then you may as well be dirt. The US is surprisingly similar in the way it works, although the points where it kicks in and drops out are different. |
Could you clarify this one? I hardly find the US and Japan similar in this sense. I don't remember people ignoring me as if I had just come from another planet (rather than just from another part of the same one) or staring at me like I had giant red spikes growing out of my head .
| Quote: |
| This one I find really funny: I always felt that the Japanese were too process orientated. Then I went to the US. If ever there was a country that focussed on process over result, to the detriment of both, the US would have to be it. So on this one, I have to disagree: the Japanese have a (mostly) healthy balance between process and result IMO. |
Another comment that has me shaking my head. I am just wondering, what were you doing in the US and in which parts? The US is often too focused on the results, with the process being an after thought. Japan is the opposite, where the rules governing the process often strangle things so much, it's a wonder anything gets done sometimes  .
Oh, and the OP's question?
Hard to answer, just happened to be the third on my list.    |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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kdynamic wrote:
| Quote: |
| I have always been a very free thinking, outspoken person |
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I've noticed.
| Quote: |
| Japanese culture has helped me learn how to stop and really attune myself to what others around me are thinking, feeling and saying even if they are not being straightforward about it. I have quieted down a lot. |
That's good. You are achieving something good from the culture and the people.
| Quote: |
| Studying Japanese has humbled me, which is what I wanted |
| Quote: |
| Sure, you can say that my Japanese ability will go to waste, but I don't think it was a waste at all. I wanted to study Japan for what it would teach me about language, people, and myself, not for anything specifically Japanese. |
Language and culture are inseparable. The more you learn about the language the more you learn about the culture. Definitely not a waste.
| Quote: |
| that is such BS. Have you even been in Japan as a woman? I didn't think so. You have no clue what it's like so why even comment? |
Stop for a while and think about what you typed. Does he need to be a woman to make a comment about what women have experienced in Japan?
I have heard accounts From foreign women living in Japan and I can repeat their words and experiences. Some have said it's not easy being a foreign woman in Japan. Having said that there are other foreign women in Japan who have a blast and I can repeat their words and accounts of their experiences. I don't have to be a woman in Japan to comment on what women experience here in Japan.
Gypsy Rose Kim wrote:
| Quote: |
| Here are a few of the reasons I think Japanese are rather evolved |
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I read GRK's post and have very different views. I think other posters had quite different views also. But I will say this: Everybody's experiences will be different in some way and also it is important to note that your impression and opinions about Japan might be quite different after you have stayed long term as compared to when you first arrived). But this varies from person to person.
Moreover the "I love Japan" feeling, I sometimes wonder if this is referring to "I love my city Tokyo" or is it really "I love Japan"
There is alot more to Japan than hanging out in Tokyo and meeting "seeminlgly" friendly people and being invited out to dinner by the sweet old couple and going shopping with my Japanese friends.
Japan is very different as you move from region to region. There are alot of sub-cultures around that we can't experience if we "hang out in Tokyo and go shopping with our japanese friends and get invited out to dinner by the sweet old couple" After experiencing some of those sub-cultures you may love Japan even more or maybe love it less.
In my opinon each city/culture/country around the world has something interesting to offer. Some more than others. You choose the one that's right for you. Some will prefer Tokyo some will prefer Johannesburg.
And one other interesting thing: there are Japanese people trying to get away from Japan, and there are westerners trying to get into Japan and away from their countries. So while some declare Tokyo or Japan to be the best, some Japanese are declaring some other Western country or city to be the best. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: |
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That's very true, everyone will have a different experience. I think KD defends foreign women having a great time in Japan too much sometimes, but I certainly don't deny that she has enjoyed herself here. That's a good thing for all of us to do, enjoy what we can while we're here.
| Quote: |
| And one other interesting thing: there are Japanese people trying to get away from Japan, and there are westerners trying to get into Japan and away from their countries. So while some |
My Japanese wife is one of them, she would be much happier in Europe where she lived for 10 years. Unfortunately she married the wrong passport holder ! |
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Gypsy Rose Kim
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Manners can be tatemae, as can the welcome to foreigners. You really need to learn a LOT more about this, but sadly the only way is through experience. |
I just re-read this. How utterly condescending. You have no idea what my experiences have been. I lived in Tokyo for four years, and made many life-long friends. I've also made a few enemies. I don't blame it on their culture.
Someone asked, why Japan? They didn't ask, why NOT Japan? I gave my honest opinions, but because my experiences and outlook have been different from yours that makes me naive? Whatever. As a matter of fact, I went through stages of feeling all of the same sentiments that other people have expressed on this thread. Then I left Japan, and realized that other places were even more messed up, but unfortunately they also lacked many of the other subtle charms that exist in Japan.
As to the comments about men vs women, when I first moved to Japan, I was in an atmosphere (small Chiba town, small Nova branch with a weekly help shift in Kashiwa) where I was constantly subjected to the whole, "Japan is a man's world" opinions of my coworkers (male and female). I heard blah blah Japanese women are prettier blah blah Western women are witches blah blah Western women don't like Asian guys blah blah Japanese guys aren't interested in Western women. It was just people sitting around in the staffroom speculating and reiterating stereotypes. None of it turned out to be true at all. I hate that sh7t.
Japan has no more sexism or racism than our home countries. If you want to believe that the only reason people are nice to you is because they're putting on a show, have a nice life. You must be very happy.
Japan is not some chauvenistic paradise, and men are not calling the shots. Believe they are if it makes you feel better, and if you want to think it's one big boys' club, it's fine with me. I'll be over at the other club--the one with the good music--drinking with the people who've moved past all those tired view points. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Gypsy wrote:They have impeccable manners and are very welcoming to foreigners.
Glenski wrote:
Manners can be tatemae, as can the welcome to foreigners. You really need to learn a LOT more about this, but sadly the only way is through experience.
Gypsy responded:
I just re-read this. How utterly condescending. You have no idea what my experiences have been. I lived in Tokyo for four years, and made many life-long friends. I've also made a few enemies. I don't blame it on their culture. |
Take my comment any way you like. It was not meant to be condescending. And, you have no idea what my experiences have been, either. Been here 8 years, so there. Pfft. Neener neener. My dad can beat up your dad. Childish enough for you?
All I was trying to say above was that some people (not necessarily you, Gypsy, the editorial all-encompassing neuter pronoun "you") may perceive the politeness and manners as "impeccable and welcoming", but it's not always the case. You should realize this, and after living here for 4 years, you likely do. That is what I found most surprising about your comment.
Impeccable manners. Yes, and sometimes to a fault, but also the manners can be very...how did you say it?... condescending, especially towards foreigners. That's one fault. Here's another, more along the lines of tatemae. I worked for an American company with a branch in Tokyo, and one customer was giving us a hard time. We couldn't really sell our product to him, but it was not the equipment's fault, so much as it was a new experience in using it, and lack of information from the customer to help us run it to suit his needs. Such is life. At the business bar, things were going well, and when I emerged from the toilet to the anteroom, here was our salesman with a thug holding the door to the outside shut and blocking the way. Yakuza tactics. The salesman berated me for making him look bad. This went on for 5 minutes. Back at the table, he was all smiles and politeness. Impeccable manners or tatemae?
How about our branch boss, who knew I didn't drink alcohol. Would the guy accept that? No. I did the polite thing when someone else offered to pour me a drink (I covered my glass and said no thanks). The branch boss took the bottle and poured it all over my hand. Impeccable manners? Not even tatemae.
Came time to leave Tokyo, and I expected to return in a few weeks. Would the branch boss even see me to the office door, wish me well, etc.? No, he sat sullenly in his office with the door half open, even though the other office staff gave me polite goodbyes. I went in to shake his hand goodbye, and he didn't even look up. Gave me a curt, limp-wristed hand and kept at his paperwork. Impeccable manners? Tatemae? Neither.
Just a few small examples.
Welcoming to foreigners. I could tell you several stories of homestay situations where that was definitely not the case. How about the banner in Narita airport declaring June a month to keep an eye on foreigners and potential crime? Or the government snitch site on foreigners? Or the signs that say "Japanese only" in many establishments, and (what's worse) the lack of laws to protects foreigners from such discrimination? Welcoming, indeed.
You may have had other experiences. Good for you. |
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