| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
 |
|
if there is a chance than any EF schools are like this then avoiding the whole chain is the surest way of avoid problems associated with the EF chain...after all the failure to require schools to abide by the franchise charter would be an indictment not to patronize any workplace governed by EF...
however..many I have known like working at EFs...and although I do not think that anyone should work for this employer..as they just do not pay enough for the work product required....this post leaves a lot of questions...such as 9 FT sick in one contract period....being laid off just after being ask to extend a year...
| Quote: |
| The DoS that replaced him was ineffective at his job and ended up doing whatever Chinese management wanted him to do. |
again this is up to management to decide...as he is working for them and not for the FTs..need a union to do that...and he is supposed to do what management tells him..if not then why would they pay hm...
FTs must remember it is not their opinion...that really matters when it come to an employer and employee relationship ...and simply observing a teacher will not give an FT in site as to the injustices of the work place....and one thing the op states that will surely get someone kicked...
| Quote: |
| Jane�s first couple days of work were filled by complaints from EF local staff stating that they were afraid of Jane Doe and that she was not a nice person. |
I once lost a job cause the staff said that the students thought I looked like a ghost...I took my money and found another job, not really thinking bout it...as an employer and consumers have the right to choose who they want to work ...... and some folk just don't like ghost...
but of real interest and something that is suspiciously left out...what cases involved racism....and
| Quote: |
| At this time, breaches of contract occurred pertaining to overtime, extra-curricular activities (such as oral placement interviews and the sending of foreign teachers to recruit students intrusively in locations such as KFC and street corners) and the sending of teachers to remote locations without appropriate travel pay. Shortly thereafter, EF Shanghai was informed and appropriate amendments were made to protect the teacher�s interests. However, after pay was allotted for some travel time, the extra hours were not counted toward the max hours per week. Thus, many teachers were forced to work overtime without pay. |
I wonder what kind of recruiting was required...and what was KFCs role in this...the travel pay with the exception of reimbursement for tkts,... that is not usually part of a package in china although you should get paid for the hours worked..but by overtime..meaning time worked over the usually number of hours required each week...there should be a stated rate..some rates are low..such as 65 per hr...I though part of the requirements of EF was the interview and placement of potential students...
again..I wouldn't recommend anyone work for EF..but often I feel that work units are given an unfair expectation by FTs, new to the work cultural, who feel that the employer should act like their parents... and "bad reputation" as a criteria for the schools you reject does not allow for the fact that some of the post are motivated by advertising, disgruntled employees, competing schools...and just downright manipulators... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
aijiang
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cj750, I would be happy to respond to you in a more thorough way but I am having a hard time determining which part of your writing is a question and which is a statement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
as do many..no fault of your , just my rambling way of writing and thinkin while providing for libations and other party favors..sorry..but that brings up a good point..the information we receive here is often not complete...
so ok..cases..what cases? Do you mean that it is a case in court..or just case as in examples provided...
were staff members afraid of this FT..
are not evals part of your job.....
you were paid travel time but no hourly wage when it came to outside assignments....
were the recruitment exercises done with KFCs knowledge and did these come in the form of an English Corner....
Unlike you..
| Quote: |
| I think that all EF branches should be given a chance and judged on an individual basis. |
I think the pay is low for the requirements...and would not even consider advising anyone to work there..but as I have stated many times...many I have met have not only decided to work more than two terms but have gone on to management..but the one thing I would keep in mind...a franchise that cannot keep its members in line..is one that should not be patronized, by me..a point I have always agreed with English although I didn't agree with his overall summation ... and I think for those that have signed on with EF..and are happy with their choice..more power to you...but as to this post...so far I see an abnormal high incident rate of op reported sickness...which I feel cannot possible be attributed to pollution...unless EF has now started recruiting in the Asthmatic ward..
FTs that have lost a favored DOS and are now faced with a "company man".....as a FAO...and it occurred to me that per the OPs installment ..the original FAO was let go perhaps because he didn't do what the management wanted...
| Quote: |
| The DoS that replaced him was ineffective at his job and ended up doing whatever Chinese management wanted him to do. |
This as decided by you..no offense, but isn't an employee suppose to do what management wants, barring illegal stuff..what did he do that was so distasteful to the staff...
| Quote: |
| Of the 14 teachers that I worked with over the past year, 5 off them were fired, 3 quit and 9 had medical issues. |
that would be more than 14 unless some of the 9 were also some of the 5....I guess I would ask ..how many FTs are there...what kind of medical issues...i was in a group of 40 when I first came here..and many were not ready for china and had some medical problems..but even with 40 FT..there were less than 9 who had medical issues...seems a little high...
You really need not answer if you dont want to..my mind as to EF was form a long time ago..when I worked part time for them...a little trick in accounting convinced me that their pay wasnt as good as presented..and I hate franschises... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mondrian
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 658
Location: "was that beautiful coastal city in the NE of China"
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not ANOTHER EF thread!
Yawn! yawn!
Perhaps a sticky (copy attached) is in order with the EF avatar to warn those (?)newbies who can't yet read?
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why just avoid EF branches? Why not avoid the Aston's, the Wall Street's, heck, why not avoid any and all language mills altogether?
Public schools 4ever! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
I know that I am seen as an EF crusader on this board by some but I am not and I think that if you look at my posts carefully you will see that. I just believe that rather than discount a whole chain of schools based upon the bad behavior of a few within the chain and potentially end up at a school outside of that chain which is just as bad or even worse, it is far more useful to concentrate on identifying the individual schools within that chain that are bad or good.
|
Don't you have a website that has an advert from EF on it? Do you think it would be unfair to conclude that could merit a slight conflict of interest?
So many bad stories about EF suggest a problem with the organisation itself. The very fact it is a franchise should, if the company was even close to being well-run, lead to similarities in each of the franchises. Surely the very point of going to a franchise is that each centre is similar. If this is not the case then it calls into question the entire company.
Or are EF the teaching equivalent of Domino's Pizza?
Instead it seems to be a matter of pot luck.
Maybe we can have some threads about GOOD EF franchises? Therefore people could actually reward them by applying to teach there and also they will receive good publicity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Don't you have a website that has an advert from EF on it? Do you think it would be unfair to conclude that could merit a conflict of interest? |
Not unfair to conclude that at all - but you would be wrong. If the advert from EF had any bearing on our site then you would not be able to find any negative comments about EF on our site. If you can find any negative comments about specific EF schools online that have been excluded from our site then you are welcome to free membership - for life! I might remind you that our site is on the public record for refusing payments from bad schools and if we believed that EF was a bad school then it certainly would not get a banner on our site.
But that is really an aside as if EF as a whole is such a terrible place to work then perhaps you would like to explain why most people who work there don't have any serious complaints! And also why most of the schools in the chain have not had a bad word said about them!
To me it is pretty clear. There are schools within that chain that should be avoided, and perhaps EF Urumiqi seems to be one of them. I know that I certainly wouldn't work there after what the OP wrote - even if only half of what he wrote is true. It is just not worth the risk. There are also schools in that chain that people have made positive comments about - but these will of course be discounted as someone with a vested interest.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| So many bad stories about EF suggest a problem with the organisation itself. |
Actually I believe that the prevalence of comments about EF is not related to how good or bad the chain is, but more so to the fact that EF as a whole employs many more foreign teachers than any other school in China. A local public or private school probably employs one or two foreign teachers each year, while EF nationwide probably employs hundreds. Seems to me that there is a fairly good chance that some of those teachers could have problems.
Add to this fact that EF hires their fair share of newbies to China as it is a good fit for newbies and you find another reason for complainst as some of those newbies were just not cut out to be here.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Maybe we can have some threads about GOOD EF franchises? Therefore people could actually reward them by applying to teach there and also they will receive good publicity. |
Exactly. That is the whole point. Let's identify the good schools in the chain and the bad ones and then teachers can make the right choice.
All of this talk about avoiding the whole chain based upon bad experiences at a few schools within the chain just strikes me as being counter-productive. Surely the best way for foreign teachers to improve the teacher employment situation here in China is to identify and avoid the bad schools, while supporting and rewarding the good ones. I don't think that the name on the door is as important as the experiences of the teachers who work inside the school.
There was a thread here a while back on EF in which I put together a list of positive and negative experiences in the chain but the thread kind of got derailed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Actually I believe that the prevalence of comments about EF is not related to how good or bad the chain is, but more so to the fact that EF as a whole employs many more foreign teachers than any other school in China. |
Exactly why the heat should be focused on this company - after all if such a big player in the market can't get its act right, with its head office seemingly unable to stem rather dubious standards of FT employment, then these practices become closer to being accepted as norms that other franchises and indeed companies may want to follow when employing their FT's.
Anything less than not making a lot of noise about bad situations in EF - wouldn't be fair to established FT's who are constantly trying to maintain and better their own conditions of employment - new recruits who are so easily sucked into the clutches of the bad employer � and last but not least EF itself, a company that must appreciate our quality control warnings in relation to their own never ending quest to improve standards of company efficiency. I�m personally looking forward to the fruits of our hard work � with a resulting EF where standards of employment are so raised that general standards in the whole of this rather messy industry also follow suite  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
But that is really an aside as if EF as a whole is such a terrible place to work then perhaps you would like to explain why most people who work there don't have any serious complaints! And also why most of the schools in the chain have not had a bad word said about them!
|
What are you talking about? When did I say it was "such a terrible place to work?" So why would I "like to explain" anything?
My points were more related along the lines that although supposedly part of a chain it does seem that employees can be at the whim of the local DOS. Now surely in such a case the good part in working for a chain (and therefore added security compared to a school) would be that issues could be resolved by head office should it get to the stage of breaking down at local level. Yet on here we hear that Head Office doesn't want to know more times than there is any help.
What about other chain schools in China? Do they seem to garner the bad publicity that EF have? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| certainly folks who run a website are going to have a bias....and owners who are put on a defensive by a question concerning this bias are usually unwilling to put forwards any bad information...as I have seen bad reports on other boards for EFs...and to be fair..it is my conclusion that EF hires mostly new entrain candidates..and there fore will have a higher whine factor than a lot of schools......but does EF have any bad marks on boards held by current participants of this discussion...if there is advertising ...is there also a report and is it good or bad... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Margot73
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 145
Location: New York City
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Question for cj750: What do you look like that the students thought you looked like a ghost? I'm really curious. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| To me it is pretty clear. |
hey buxiban man, your "clear" knowledge/experience of EF English First is PRETTY CLEAR ...but keep readin' on and maybe you'll get more of it and then maybe you'll put it all on your buxiban site too
there are many interested in EF postings on and here is one of them
| Quote: |
You wrote:
many I have known like working at EFs...and although I do not think that anyone should work for this employer..as they just do not pay enough for the work product required....this post leaves a lot of questions...such as 9 FT sick in one contract period....being laid off just after being ask to extend a year... |
those employers that you are talking about are the individual franchisees i suppose ... the franchisor/head office is to insure the standards are followed
| Quote: |
One wrote:
The DoS that replaced him was ineffective at his job and ended up doing whatever Chinese management wanted him to do
You replied:
again this is up to management to decide...as he is working for them and not for the FTs..need a union to do that...and he is supposed to do what management tells him..if not then why would they pay hm...
|
DoSs are to run centers' accademic affairs, even though the chinese management and investors often interfere there...this isn't about a union, but one franchise with one standard...it does sound like you have little knowledge about the organization 
peace to all EF threads
and
cheers and beers to all that participate on  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Englishgibson as ususal your post is all over the place and you have attributed quotes to me that are not even mine. At least take the time to read the thread if you want to discuss the topic.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| What are you talking about? When did I say it was "such a terrible place to work?" So why would I "like to explain" anything? |
Actually this was not meant for you it was more of general 'you' for others that had posted that EF should be avoided altogether. Having re-read what I wrote I see how it comes across as being directed at you TravellingAround but it wasn't so feel free to ignore that part of my post.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| My points were more related along the lines that although supposedly part of a chain it does seem that employees can be at the whim of the local DOS. Now surely in such a case the good part in working for a chain (and therefore added security compared to a school) would be that issues could be resolved by head office should it get to the stage of breaking down at local level. Yet on here we hear that Head Office doesn't want to know more times than there is any help. |
I don't entirely disagree with this and I think that it is a good warning for anyone who is looking at working for EF or any chain under the assumption that everything is micro-managed by head office. It is not and in most cases the schools are independantly run franchise operations. This is why I advocate individual research of individual locations rather than broad generalizations about the chain being either good or bad.
Having said that there are examples where EF head office have stepped in and supported teachers with complaints with schools and there was a post about this in this very thread so to be fair we should not ignore the fact that head office can help. We just shouldn't rely upon them blindly for their assistance, and should instead do everything that we possibly can to protect ourselves.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| What about other chain schools in China? Do they seem to garner the bad publicity that EF have? |
Good question.
No other chain schools has as many locations, nor foreign teachers in China as EF does. So therefore it is logical that there will be more chatter about EF than other schools. Taking into account the numbers of school locations and teachers involved I believe EF to be better than some of the other chain schools out there such as Kids Castle, while not being as good as others like Aston. But these are just generalizations and to get a true idea of what a school is like you really need to look at the individual location not the name on the door. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
what kind of EF chatter do you get on your site....
to Margot73..well I dont look like Casper...
One way for sure to avoid any problems with an EF school is to avoid EF....
but like I said before..the whine factor is high in this type of school...look at English..he is still whining...but....if EF wanted it franshinses to comply it could take measures to insure compliance... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Taking into account the numbers of school locations and teachers involved I believe EF to be better than some of the other chain schools out there such as Kids Castle, while not being as good as others like Aston. |
I quite agree with CJ (One way for sure to avoid any problems with an EF school is to avoid EF) � and would really like to support Clark in his new �mills of China hit parade chart�. So mill fans - you really want to make EF number 1 on the Clark hit list - then boycott working there until that time its proven their HQ can manage all those far-flung franchises in an adequate manner. Also some improvement regarding conditions of work and pay would be a nice touch - after all their low hourly rates/ shared accommodation and very poor holiday deals also hold them back in the popularity stakes. It shouldn't take much of an effort to get 'em to that top spot � since the hottest opposition seems to be Aston's - the mill that sends it's employees on bi-weekly �drum up new custom� trips to Mac'D's and KFC - and I'm sure giving them some recruiting grief will encourage EF HQ in their efforts on pulling the company socks up 
This kind of action probably has the full support of Clark, since his work here is always focused on the interests of us hard working FT�s |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
