Job Discussion Forums

[globalnomad2]

Shuiz: I'm not sure why you would say a PhD from an English department is a dubious achievement. To teach at the four-year college level in the US, you need a PhD. And the PhD is in fact a higher degree that better prepares one for university teaching in literature and writing. Perhaps not in some countries, where they just do a dissertation, but in the US they have to take 3 years of courses in addition to the dissertation; all of this is preparation for teaching at advanced levels. As far as getting published is concerned, it's nothing to do with the degree after your name. Your advisors are generally respected, published authors, some of them even best-selling. If they believe in your project, they have connections they can connect you to. They send you to writers' conferences with introductions; they introduce you to literary agents (who normally do not take on new authors without an introduction from someone they know--that's just a fact of literary life).

You obviously know nothing about this field yet you chime in with value judgments that a PhD in lit or writing is a "dubious" achievement. The words and entire tone of your replies are insulting and are not what I would expect from an educated person. I asked not for input as to whether the doctoral level of study in lit and writing is inferior to other fields or "dubious" compared to yours. I wondered whether others who (a) like to write and (b) would like to get out of ESL/EFL to teach it ...would go for a PhD at my age to accomplish goal (b).

[shuize]

It's a dubious achievement in my view because, after a significant investment in time and money (not to mention lost wages), it leaves the newly minted PhDs woefully unprepared for anything beyond teaching undergraduates how to be woefully unprepared for the world themselves. Even that wouldn't be so bad, of course, if there was some prospect of a decent paying job at the end of the tunnel in your case to justify forgoing five years of retirement savings just before you're going to need it. But, ignoramus that I am, I guess I just don't see the big picture. Maybe university hiring committees really are falling over themselves to employ unpublished 61 year-old faculty members with no experience in the field.

[globalnomad2]

Ah--now your comments are more logical. As for unpublished, my book is unpublished as yet. That does not imply other writings have not been published. It also does not imply that the book will never get published.

[Sheikh Inal Ovar]

[helmsman]

Nomad, from a purely monetary point of view it would make more sense to stay on in RAK, even if it�s like flogging a dead horse; however, it sounds like you are really set on this. I say give it a shot and see what happens. If you don�t you may go to your grave wondering what it would have been like. If if doesn�t work out you will eventually find somewhere to work (how about Cambodia?). The wife and dependents may or may not look so kindly on this adventure, though. Ultimately, this discussion is not about money, but about self-actualization. I actually envy you somewhat as I'll probably slave away in the salt mines till I drop or get driven insane, whichever comes first.

[helmsman]

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[shuize]

[MELEE]

IMHO, getting a PhD in any field has to be about a passion for the subject and a love for the university lifestyle. If you are not passionate about the subject I wouldn't recommend a PhD no matter whether it is in Creative Writing or Actuarial Science.

And those of you moaning about the lack of money in this field, should go back to school in Actuarial Science, and you should do it quick.

[merlin]

A PhD in physics would probably pay for itself in one year if you pick the right specialty and can write grants. There are lots of other fields as well.

But in the "liberal studies" area you'll be taking a big pay cut to become a professor and probably need to teach ESL on the side to make ends meet.

[globalnomad2]

Most likely you are right. I suppose it comes down to how passionate I might be about pursuing the degree, the period of subsidized writing, he community of writers, and the help in getting the book published, all for their own sake.

[andoryu]

I found this thread interesting - I was also surprised at the rather bitter tone of some. I think all PhDs have some element of self indulgence but I also found it tremendously useful to discipline my thoughts to focus on a particularly small area. I've certainly found it useful for my work now. I finally have my PhD and it was a struggle, I worked all the way through it teaching privately whenever I could and in the summers.

The one thing it has given me, I suppose, is confidence of expertise in one particular tiny area of linguistics. It's impact on my ability to teach has been negligable but it has certainly made a difference to my salary. This has to be balanced with the years of genteel poverty that prolonged student life brought me.

If you want to do one, I'd say go for it, whatever the age, but the biggest gains will be personal rather than financial or status-driven. I suppose there is the scarlet robe and the floppy hat, but that's mostly a European thing .... the best of luck.

[Henry_Cowell]

At a community college in the U.S., you'd be competing against other -- much younger -- Ph.D.'s who have more teaching experience than you. Community colleges are seeking to add part-timers (which is all you'd be at first) who are young, eager, and willing to work hard and long hours for low pay. I think you, at the age of 61, would probably go to the bottom of the candidate list.

However, if you have a Master's in Teaching ESL, you'd at least be able to teach the many ESL classes that English departments now offer. Moreover, you would not need the Ph.D.

[globalnomad2]

I have 20 years f/t EFL teaching experience. But I never said I had no experience teaching American college students.

[Henry_Cowell]

You do not need a Ph.D. in creative writing to teach creative writing. You can be hired at any of the leading programs at top universities with the standard credential for that field: an MFA in creative writing (or even no credential if you are an established writer).

However, if you actually want to spend the final years of your career slogging through freshman composition and literature survey courses at a community college, a college, or a university, you do need a Ph.D. But you will be far older than any of the other candidates.

[globalnomad2]

I know that the MFA is a terminal degree. There are numerous reports, however, that MFAs in creative writing are nevertheless often seen or treated by the PhDs as second-class faculty. Furthermore, if one does not already have that particular MFA, I don't see the harm in going for the PhD INSTEAD of the MFA. Your comment about slogging through freshman comp at a community college is a valid one, but for me it might also be a valid alternative to slogging through EFL classes in the desert Middle East. Living in the US on a living wage is not a bad thing at all; neither is teaching 12-15 hours. However, the various comments on this thread are helpful. No one said anything I didn't know, but a preponderence of "votes" is helpful nonetheless--in the same way you might have an emotional hankering to do something you know isn't good for you, so you ask all your friends about it, knowing they'll help common sense prevail. Looking at a retirement package, it's clear I'll be in very good shape if I keep working for 7 or 8 years and probably relying on social security if I went for the doctorate at this late stage. And I can always amuse myself by continuing to write whatever I want--as opposed to the "workshop writing" that gets homogenized at many schools. Thanks to everyone for your comments.