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Mister Al
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 840
Location: In there
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 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Vikdk
You keep '"quoting" my words either out of context or incomplete so you can make your point.
[quote] We then read from one posters experience at an EF center -
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Late 2004 to early 2005 EF Chongqing....Academic Director....six months, despite working with some good teachers a bit of a crap experience. Dodgy owner (who I actually never met), a Centre Manager who in Feb 2005 're-imbursed' himself by taking all the staff wages.
He latter goes on to tell us that although EF head office paid some compensation - airfares and other bonuses were withheld - and indeed EF HQ had no legal obligation to pay anything!!!!
Vikdk, what's with the exclamation marks? Do you understand anything about contract law? In case you don't, a contract is a legally binding agreement between two or more parties. I did not have an employment contract with EFHQ. Per se this means they had no legal obigation to pay me or other FT's anything. I'm sure even you can work that one out. Of course I would have liked to have got all the other benefits I was due from my contract with the centre. I did go to the local Labour Dispute Office and also a lawyer to try to work out a way for everyone to get compensated by the school owner for her breach of contract(s), but quickly dicovered that that would be a waste of time and effort. That's life. What do you want me to do? Jump up and down screaming that big bad EFHQ done me wrong, guv. Sorry pal, they didn't. They gave me and other FT staff an ex-gratia payment and put pressure on the owner to compensate everyone involved but naturally she was never gonna entertain that idea. So I took what I could get and went off on another adventure, like you do.
For everyone else (and as a wee reminder to vikdk of course), as I mentioned previously on this forum, I worked for three EF centres between 2001 and 2004 (Guangzhou, Xiamen and Chongqing). Only the last was was a crap experience. Think whatever you like about that. As for how I feel now, I'm glad I'm not with them anymore but that's more to do with what I did after that and what I'm doing now rather than from my experiences in those years, which generally were very good. Lucky me, eh? 
It seems from other posters here that EF are having quite a few organisational difficulties in China these days, more than I can remember anyway, but that's not my business now. All I would say is go and work for EF if you want, or not as the case may be. But as with any of the ' language mills' or franchise operations around the globe, try to do some homework before you make your mind up. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Well EF the organisation are proud to boast on their official web page -
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Join Us
Teach English to children, teenagers and adults within our network of language schools operating worldwide. At EF, we have 40 years of experience and 23,000 English teachers who all share the same mission: to break down the barriers of language, culture and geography that divide us. |
And just above this message they have a link you can click which reads -
click here to become a teacher
After, reading this - and other stuff on this site which seems to be one that encourages recruitment under a united EF, the worldwide organisation (note the use of - we have - in the opening quote) - then I'm very glad that those in the know, like Mister Al, warm me that if, after taking up employment at a center in China, the proverbial waste matter does hit the fan then you to could be in his situation -
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| I did not have an employment contract with EFHQ. Per se this means they had no legal obigation to pay me or other FT's anything. |
Seems to me we can't stress this point enough for those newbies who are lured into working for EF out of a sense of extra security eminating from the gobal nature of their operation - since, in this regard, a line in the opening quote of my post does then ring true -
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| who all share the same mission: to break down the barriers of language, culture and geography that divide us |
because they've certainly achieved this goal in the business sense in China - same �bad� (and in many cases worse) conditions of pay and employment that are found throughout the mainstream EFL industry in China.
But you never know - a bit more pressure, and EF may be encouraged to try and clean their China management act up - otherwise the present day effort does smack of HQ washing their hands of too much responsibility with regard to what happens to an FT - that is as soon as they've got them to start working in China  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Don't worry Mister Al, its clear that your shadow has nothing to offer this discussion so instead hides behinds misquotes, quips, and emoticons! That is just his MO.
| Mister Al wrote: |
| I did go to the local Labour Dispute Office and also a lawyer to try to work out a way for everyone to get compensated by the school owner for her breach of contract(s), but quickly dicovered that that would be a waste of time and effort. That's life. What do you want me to do? Jump up and down screaming that big bad EFHQ done me wrong, guv. Sorry pal, they didn't. They gave me and other FT staff an ex-gratia payment and put pressure on the owner to compensate everyone involved but naturally she was never gonna entertain that idea. So I took what I could get and went off on another adventure, like you do. |
Those who are anti-EF always suggest that it is best to avoid EF but I can't help but notice that had Mister Al been working for an indepedant school outside of a chain then from his account above he would have got nothing. So in this case the fact that the school he was working for was part of a chain is the only thing that saved him from walking away empty-handed. So much for the suggestion that it is a safer bet to avoid chain schools.
This thread has been a long one, but in my mind it has also been one of the more productive ones about this issue. The naysayers have continued with their empty rhetoric and emoticon filled quips - that hasn't changed. The thing that is noticeable to me is that we are getting more sensible and reasoned comments from those who have had good experiences. They are not coming here singing the praises of the chain but instead merely pointing out that the suggestion that everyone has a problem there is just not factual nor logical!
Considering that it is now clear that not everyone has problems there I again question the advice about avoiding the whole chain? Perhaps it is those who are anti-EF that have the bias and not those who suggest that they are worth equal consideration as other schools. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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how clear Clark makes it on these forums 
before i get back to this buximan, i'd like to quote Sonnet
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| I haven't lied. Nothing I have posted on this board is untrue. |
now, there're some good questions below from one for Sonnet
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Sonnet - just out of interest - how can you be so sure of this - could you guarantee it? And if by any chance the interests of your teachers started to be negatively affected due to the actions of your employer - how would you be able to turn this situation around????
Is your assured statements based on the influence you hold at your center and the EF organisation - or is it more linked to something that could be likened to blind faith???? |
i'd be interested as well
and back to the buximan that seemingly loves the EF related forums so much
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| Don't worry Mister Al, its clear that your shadow has nothing to offer this discussion so instead hides behinds misquotes, quips, and emoticons! That is just his MO. |
to the help of one here we go again about how clear things are for Clark
Clarkie, what have you offered to the EF discussion  ....and when did you open up your computer room curtains
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| This thread has been a long one, but in my mind it has also been one of the more productive ones about this issue. |
i guess that's thanx to your postings with experiences and the facts about EF on
peace to buxiban's gathering of "intelligence" on
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cheers and beers to Sonnet's whereabouts as well as her job offers |
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Sonnet
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 235
Location: South of the river
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| What's so funny about me having not lied here? Is there a joke I'm missing? |
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Mister Al
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 840
Location: In there
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Vikdk
Regarding your quotes from the EF website. Don't you recognise advertising blurb? Why single out EF? That's what businesses do. They try to convince us all into believing their products/services are the best bet.
If anyone is interested, EFHQ recruitment procedure as far as I know (and remember) for positions in China, and in a nutshell, is as follows:
1. Applicant gets in touch with EF recruitment (TRC?) or TRC will be informed of potential teachers going through EF TEFL training programmes.
2. Places that applicants are interested in teaching in and /or positions available in China are communicated by the parties. (I'm sure that TRC try to fill 'difficult' positions first and I can't imagine them doing anything other than painting a reasonable picture of the centre-what else would you expect a business to do).
3. TRC recommends applicant to centre and informs applicant that communication will be between the centre and the applicant 'from now on' , the centre will contact them soon and that any agreement will be between the centre and the applicant.
4. Centre contacts the applicant.
5. Interviews (usually e-mail/phone/webcam)
6. Centre offers position to applicant sending employment contract terms with names of parties (at this point it is also clear to the applicant who their contract will be with), a job description, some local info about how 'beautiful' and 'interesting' the city is and also a Letter of Intent that the applicant e-mails back to inform the centre that he/she will sign the contract within a few days of arrival at centre. (Individual centre's policy will determine whether centre pays for airfare in advance)
7. Applicant accepts terms and conditions or not, or tries to negotiate them.
8. Parties agree.
9. Applicant hopes he/she has made the right move-as everyone does when agreeing to any contract.
10. Centre/DOS has the same hopes.
11. Who knows what happens after that. Life's rich tapestry etc. Maybe parties are happy maybe one or both regrets the experience. That's life.
So 'newbies', it's simple really. If you are considering working for EF, ask EFHQ for the answers to any questions you might have and the same of the interviewer at the EF centre. If you don't like the answers, don't sign a contract. And try not to be so naive as vikdk and believe everything you read when companies advertise. (Sorry vikdk. Nothing personal, I just think you need to wake up a bit regarding common advertising practice and in particular the very nature of franchise operations). Maybe you are just trying to help some 'newbies' but I don't think you do to be honest. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Regarding your quotes from the EF website. Don't you recognise advertising blurb? Why single out EF? |
Maybe its because this thread is about EF - if you care to start a thread about other obnoxious chains such as Aston - I'll be glad to chip in there as well.
If I may add something to your fine post - a certain point is bothering me.
You write -
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| try not to be so naive as vikdk and believe everything you read when companies advertise. |
Well since I'm not supposed to believe all the EF advertising blurb - you then suggest -
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| ask EFHQ for the answers to any questions you might have and the same of the interviewer at the EF centre. |
But if I'm not to believe the company literature - wouldn't I also be naive to believe, on the same score, the blurb coming out the mouths of EFHQ and interviewer - after all they have the same agenda as the rest of the advertising - recruiting!!!!
I think Mister Al has brought up a good point here - if as he tells the advertising is not entirely to be believed - then why believe anything in any form from this company |
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Mister Al
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 840
Location: In there
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hey vikdk
Conspiracy theory? Is that where you're coming from? Recruiters at EFHQ are naturally going to do their best to attract teachers to their organisation. That's their job so why would you be surprised if they made EF in China sound like something close to a 'dream' job. (Don't most companies do the same sort of thing?). And really, do you think that the 50+ DoSes at EF China sit with flyers and such on their desks and give the same blurb as each other? Pretty insulting idea. To quote you- "after all they have the same agenda as the rest of the advertising - recruiting!!!!" Of course they are. Tell us something we don't know. Quick question- Have you ever taken part in an interview where the interviewer says something along the lines of..."Rubbish company....don't trust anyone....all you get is lies here.....we're exploited all the time......Do you wanna join us?." I think not, vikdk.
And BTW, I'm not suggesting you believe everything or nothing in recruitment material.....use your brain, you know filter out the guff. As for speaking with an interviewer, well at the end of the day, if your offered the job you either accept or don't and that would depend a bit on what you believed or didn't believe from the interviewer. Seems to me you think that anyone who tries to recruit staff for EF, either from HQ or a centre is not to be trusted at all. Is that what your saying? (If not, then apologies for misunderstanding you). If so, then the word 'paranoid' comes quickly to mind.
On another comment you made, why would a franchisor advertising for staff use the word 'They' instead of 'We'. A little bit of a weak point, I think. Maybe it's time to get off your soap box and think about the 'strengths' of your arguments.
As for Aston, no idea. Never had the 'pleasure' of working for them and don't know anyone who has. How about yourself?
Anyway, in the spirit of goodwill, I hope the points I've tried to make throughout this thread make some kind of sense. If not to your goodself then maybe to a few others and even some newbies. If not, oh well. Time to watch some footy now. (Half-time Arsenal 1 Bolton 1)
Last edited by Mister Al on Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyway, in the spirit of goodwill, I hope the points I've tried to make throughout this thread make some kind of sense. |
you sure have - and by sharing your final EF experiences with us -
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| Late 2004 to early 2005 EF Chongqing....Academic Director....six months, despite working with some good teachers a bit of a crap experience. Dodgy owner (who I actually never met), a Centre Manager who in Feb 2005 're-imbursed' himself by taking all the staff wages. |
You give a lot of food for thought on the conditions that could occur at an EF center - conditions that seem to be out of the control of EF mangement - and I'm sure not the kind of info EFHQ would want to share with us.
We've got Liverpool vs Man city out here 0-0 - borin as hell  |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Conspiracy theory? |
This is about FTs caring about other FTs 
Silver Tower (EF HQ) foreign staff plays into the cards of their Chinese coworkers that have set up the franchising system in China. Now,
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| Is that where you're coming from? |
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| And really, do you think that the 50+ DoSes at EF China sit with flyers and such on their desks and give the same blurb as each other? |
I don't know about that "50+" statistics, but I know that there are quite a few EF centers without a Director of Studies in China..courtesy of the franchisees/employers and their EF Center Managers. Some have Senior Teachers appointed as "acting Directors of Studies", so that the centers wouldn't have to register their academic supervisors in Shanghai's Silver Tower (EF HQ). And, those centers are the ones that often advetise on daves site individually....'cause they are not allowed (according to EF rules/standards) to get any FTs through the central recruiting. Mind you that there are more and more EF centers without a Director of Studies
Now, DoSes do not sit..you are right....they bend fairly often, with all due respect to their hard work. It's a choice that they have to make to keep their jobs or not. Their authority is absolutely diminished thanks to the circumstances that they are put in. Their headless office compromises their positions and their employers take complete control of academic affairs..so, if one DoS decides to contradict his/her employer on any academic issue, he/she will have to ..hmm..see the "Jade Travel" soon then 
When I was an EF Director of Studies (lonely job), I wanted to discuss some issues on line and on the EF site using the dos.englishfirst.com.cn, however I was often censored for little things and so were many other DoSes in China. So, say for example if I posted an enquiry about whether other DoSes had a say in hiring their academic staff or if they had a say in whether to start a course or not or if they had their say in giving bonuses to their academic staff .... I would always be CENSORED by the Silver Tower machine.
Peace to all Directors of Studies as well as the EF ones
and
cheers and beers to the honesty of our discussions  |
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KES
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 722
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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When I was an EF Director of Studies (lonely job), I wanted to discuss some issues on line and on the EF site using the dos.englishfirst.com.cn, however I was often censored for little things and so were many other DoSes in China. So, say for example if I posted an enquiry about whether other DoSes had a say in hiring their academic staff or if they had a say in whether to start a course or not or if they had their say in giving bonuses to their academic staff .... I would always be CENSORED by the Silver Tower machine. Laughing
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Were your postings chock full of smiley's and spelling errors?
Just asking.
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Good idea KES - especially for those DOS's who are thinking of posting HQ on current frontline China info . Here's an example they could try -
Hey bossez - had a peep at you're web zite
http://www.englishfirst.com/trt/locations_cn.html
And i saw this
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| Shanghai (3 centres), Guangzhou, Shenzhen (4 centres), Daqing (2 centres), Fuzhou, Hangzhou (2 centres), Xian (2 centres), Shenyang, Tianjing, Chengdu, Kunming, |
You know some of then centers exist no more - like Kunmimg and a couple at Shenzhen
You know that makes some of them nerds at daves real
But what the - who cares  |
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Sonnet
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 235
Location: South of the river
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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You found being a DoS a lonely job?
Maybe you just did it in the wrong place, or maybe in the wrong way? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe you just did it in the wrong place, or maybe in the wrong way? |
Dearest sonnet - well how will we ever get to know the right place if you remain so tight lipped over locations - ohhhh I forgot, your center isn't recruiting at the moment
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| KES wrote: |
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When I was an EF Director of Studies (lonely job), I wanted to discuss some issues on line and on the EF site using the dos.englishfirst.com.cn, however I was often censored for little things and so were many other DoSes in China. So, say for example if I posted an enquiry about whether other DoSes had a say in hiring their academic staff or if they had a say in whether to start a course or not or if they had their say in giving bonuses to their academic staff .... I would always be CENSORED by the Silver Tower machine. Laughing
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Were your postings chock full of smiley's and spelling errors?
Just asking.
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your sarcasm doesn't disappoint, does it ...for your info there were no options for "smileys"
now KES, what do you know about EF DoSes ways of communications
Darn, another one at me here
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You found being a DoS a lonely job?
Maybe you just did it in the wrong place, or maybe in the wrong way? |
not only one wrong place, Einstein ...and maybe you are the silent "Silver" horse runnin' "the wrong or maybe "secret" way"
Internet is an incredible tool for brain surgeries
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You know some of then centers exist no more - like Kunmimg and a couple at Shenzhen
You know that makes some of them nerds at daves real
But what the - who cares |
ya..who cares..that's how they come up with those "numbers" in Silver Tower ..and "many more centers are opening soon" ...maybe buximan Clarkie (reading on those EF related threads interested in) will open one SOON
THERE WERE ABOUT 40 EF CENTERS 5 YEARS AGO IN CHINA...THEY WERE TELLING US THAT THIS FRANCHISE GREW SO FAST THAT EVERY WEEK ONE EF CENTER OPENED IN CHINA
Peace to all nerds
and
cheers and beers to all heads and offices that we listen to
_____________________________________________________________
I love emoticons |
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