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FGT
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 762
Location: Turkey
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: Revolution? |
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Saturday morning: a class of intelligent, well-educated Isbank employees reduced to a jibbering mass by the prospect of a (mostly welcomed) intervention by the army.
a) Is it that likely?
b) Is it that welcome?
c) Is it justified?
d) Is it (if it happens) going to make our lives worse (how?) or better (in what way?) in the long run? - I'm not interested in short term effects, those are transparent.
e) Are we even allowed to discuss it? |
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runeman
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Coup-coup-ka-choo!
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Coup
The Coup differs from Revolution in that the power base of the country is not destroyed, and generally is not even damaged. Power in the society is simply transferred from one group in the power structure to another group in the same structure. While revolutions often set out to destroy the "instruments of coercion"--the military and police--the coup generally exploits the loyalties of these groups and the existing "civil service." Those who seize state institutions in a coup do so to use them, not destroy them.
In a coup, mass actions are minimal. Such things as riots tend to destroy the sense of governmental authority, the very concept that both coup victims and plotters want to keep intact. Both sides recognize that mass actions can, all too often, lead to the street violence of Revolution. If those involved in the power structure prefer not to have the public too involved, it is also true that the public generally wants to remain uninvolved.
Coups generally occur where there is a history of political apathy. Whether the people are politically inert because of repression, corruption or simple inefficiency of the political system seems to make little difference.
While Coups are most-often engineered in secret by conspirators, it sometimes happens that the public and the government are well aware of the coup preparations but can--or will--do nothing to prevent them. Rumors or tales of an impending coup may circulate days and weeks prior to the actual event. A coup-prone government will neither be able to quell the rumors nor be in a position to take action against those rumored to be the plotters. The government's inability to put up even a minimal defense at the moment of truth should come as no surprise in such cases.
Researchers have identified three distinct phases of a coup.
In the first phase the loyalty of the civil servants, military and police infrastructure passes from the group holding power (by virtue of their position) to another group or individual elsewhere in the power structure.
In the second phase those who have the real power, but not the titles or the perquisites that go with the power, enforce their claims to the position. They depose the targets of the coup.
In the third phase the new government legitimizes itself with the public by bringing in people who were previously outsiders, or bringing back into government service people who were associated with some previous government which was generally viewed as legitimate. This is a phase of consolidation of power and position.
Coups fall into one of two general types.
In the Palace Revolution a small group of conspirators very close to the real power center removes one of their associates by arrest, banishment or execution.
So called Representative Coups are often staged by the army or police forces, or other civil authorities, generally with the announced purpose of preventing civil strife. When popular dissatisfaction with a regime runs high, the military and others may decide a "fresh start" is needed. Despite the name applied to this type of Coup, the new government may be neither popular or representative.
Coups can be staged by conspirators who are already in the power structure; they can also be plotted by people who are outside the power system but infiltrate key posts in the political system. In either case, the Coup differs from all of the other five types of insurgency in that those who stage such a rebellion operate as part of the social system, not against it. They are, it could be said, conservative rebels.
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runeman
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so.
To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished.
It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place[d] under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored.
That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.
(P.-J. Proudhon, General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century, translated by John Beverly Robinson [London: Freedom Press, 1923], pp. 293-294.)
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justme
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| So it's the government that interrupted the sports? |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| runeman wrote: |
Coup-coup-ka-choo!
| Quote: |
Coup
The Coup differs from Revolution in that the power base of the country is not destroyed, and generally is not even damaged. Power in the society is simply transferred from one group in the power structure to another group in the same structure. While revolutions often set out to destroy the "instruments of coercion"--the military and police--the coup generally exploits the loyalties of these groups and the existing "civil service." Those who seize state institutions in a coup do so to use them, not destroy them.
In a coup, mass actions are minimal. Such things as riots tend to destroy the sense of governmental authority, the very concept that both coup victims and plotters want to keep intact. Both sides recognize that mass actions can, all too often, lead to the street violence of Revolution. If those involved in the power structure prefer not to have the public too involved, it is also true that the public generally wants to remain uninvolved.
Coups generally occur where there is a history of political apathy. Whether the people are politically inert because of repression, corruption or simple inefficiency of the political system seems to make little difference.
While Coups are most-often engineered in secret by conspirators, it sometimes happens that the public and the government are well aware of the coup preparations but can--or will--do nothing to prevent them. Rumors or tales of an impending coup may circulate days and weeks prior to the actual event. A coup-prone government will neither be able to quell the rumors nor be in a position to take action against those rumored to be the plotters. The government's inability to put up even a minimal defense at the moment of truth should come as no surprise in such cases.
Researchers have identified three distinct phases of a coup.
In the first phase the loyalty of the civil servants, military and police infrastructure passes from the group holding power (by virtue of their position) to another group or individual elsewhere in the power structure.
In the second phase those who have the real power, but not the titles or the perquisites that go with the power, enforce their claims to the position. They depose the targets of the coup.
In the third phase the new government legitimizes itself with the public by bringing in people who were previously outsiders, or bringing back into government service people who were associated with some previous government which was generally viewed as legitimate. This is a phase of consolidation of power and position.
Coups fall into one of two general types.
In the Palace Revolution a small group of conspirators very close to the real power center removes one of their associates by arrest, banishment or execution.
So called Representative Coups are often staged by the army or police forces, or other civil authorities, generally with the announced purpose of preventing civil strife. When popular dissatisfaction with a regime runs high, the military and others may decide a "fresh start" is needed. Despite the name applied to this type of Coup, the new government may be neither popular or representative.
Coups can be staged by conspirators who are already in the power structure; they can also be plotted by people who are outside the power system but infiltrate key posts in the political system. In either case, the Coup differs from all of the other five types of insurgency in that those who stage such a rebellion operate as part of the social system, not against it. They are, it could be said, conservative rebels.
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Is that from Lawrence Stone? |
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runeman
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 124
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Otterman Ollie
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 1067
Location: South Western Turkey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
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At long last a topic worth discussing on this forum . Does democracy have a future in Turkey ?
Is the E.U really saying to the army don't mess with the democratic process in your country or does it share its fear about preserving the secular state ?
By the show of strength of the populace in Istanbul yesterday it does suggest that some kind of change is taking place on the Turkish political landscape . Maybe for the better ,who knows .More importantly how will it affect those of us who choose to remain here for the long term ?
Is this a good time to keep your money in the bank or get it into something else ? |
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tvik
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: here
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| there is absolutely no chance that the army will take over the government. they are simply giving a warning and trying to influence the course of events. |
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Baba Alex
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 2411
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| tvik wrote: |
| there is absolutely no chance that the army will take over. |
You seem very sure about this, are you privy to information we doN't know about? |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| I've been out of the country and not been following the news-I'll catch up later. However I did see something over the shoulder of a fellow passenger this morning on the metro. ANAP and DYP have teamed up. Is this really an effective challenge to AKP? What percentage did both parties get last time round? |
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yaramaz
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2384
Location: Not where I was before
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=109820
A Turkish foreign news editor friend of mine is looking for yabancılar to comment on the upcoming elections and the military interference. If anyone fancies being part of an informal interview get together tomorrow night, PM me. He asked me if I could get about 6 people for it. We'd be meeting somewhere in Taksim for a coffee and just talking informally. Baba could do it because he has been on the telly before. |
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Baba Alex
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 2411
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| yaramaz wrote: |
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=109820
A Turkish foreign news editor friend of mine is looking for yabancılar to comment on the upcoming elections and the military interference. If anyone fancies being part of an informal interview get together tomorrow night, PM me. He asked me if I could get about 6 people for it. We'd be meeting somewhere in Taksim for a coffee and just talking informally. Baba could do it because he has been on the telly before. |
Coffee? 
Coffee? |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Baba could do it because he has been on the telly before |
But would you want to be in the same room as *massive fart*
I've just read your link Yaramaz. Does anyone else find it amusing that politicians are warning the military not to meddle.... leave the meddling to the politicians?
and
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| In particular the EU urged �that the election and the Constitutional Court are not influenced by external pressures.� |
like oil?
what time yaramaz?
don't think I'll make it. I have a private until 9.00 then the Chelsea-Liverpool match is at 9.45.
What's more important? a flawed election system or a CL semi final? |
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Baba Alex
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 2411
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Baba could do it because he has been on the telly before |
But would you want to be in the same room as *massive fart*
I've just read your link Yaramaz. Does anyone else find it amusing that politicians are warning the military not to meddle.... leave the meddling to the politicians?
and
| Quote: |
| In particular the EU urged �that the election and the Constitutional Court are not influenced by external pressures.� |
like oil?
what time yaramaz?
don't think I'll make it. I have a private until 9.00 then the Chelsea-Liverpool match is at 9.45.
What's more important? a flawed election system or a CL semi final? |
If Chelsea win I want the military to step in and remove them or something. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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