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tvik · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 371 Location: here

its not in europe's interest to see turkey in chaos. they want to preserve the status quo and keep the induction process at a slow crawl. turkey will join in about 30-40 years.

of course turkey is a divided nation. divided into more than just two opposing sides. the islamic/secular split is essentially a rich/poor split. when people are rich they don't need god. (Please god!!! i need a BMW instead of a Fiat!!!)

anyone who's been east of Ankara knows that turkey is vastly different in different areas

tvik · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 371 Location: here

Chance of coup: 0.0000246%

Otterman Ollie · Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:29 am Post subject:

I think you hit the nail on the head Tvik .All this great big upset is just about the rich been squeezed for the first time in their lives .For too many years they have rode on the back of high interest rates and high inflation getting big incomes from high rents and paying low or zero taxes . Along comes the AK party and they change things and make these parasites accountable .For the first time this country is moving in one direction instead of been pulled in opposite ones .
Despite the fact Erdogan has created economic ,political and social reforms never seen before they still regard him with distrust .I believe this whole thing has been planned for quite some time and by calling this election Erdogan has the opposition and the military right where he wants them .
What happens in the next few months is enevitable as the sinking of the titanic except the AK party has cornered the market in lifeboats .

Sheikh Inal Ovar · Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 1208 Location: Melo Drama School

Ollie seems to be operating under the notion that the AKP are whiter than white and that none of their members have any fingers in the country's pies ...

Otterman Ollie · Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:24 am Post subject:

Eerr not exactly,more than a few of their deputies have broken the rules but compared to some of their predecessors like Ciller and co not exactly whiter than white ,just better .

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

tvik · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 371 Location: here

i can't quite figure out what going on with this islamic paranoia. my friends assure me that the threat is real and imminant but they are hard pressed to come up with examples of real policies and actions that the government has taken in the direction of the Koran. i think the opposition parties play on these fears as the only way to get votes. all through the 90's the secular parties proved themselves to be totally incompetant and fracticious. i'd rather have a strong party lead by erdoğan and his mild form of islam that a bunch of crooks.

how does one either prove or deny a "hidden agenda"?????

justme · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1944 Location: Istanbul

That's mostly true, tvik, though I do remember early on in AKP's term, they wanted to pass a law to punish rapists by making them marry their victims, thus restoring the women's honor (though perhaps this was just a rumor put out by the opposition? I couldn't actually read enough Turkish at that time to have read it myself). I also remember a lot of to-do about making zina laws, which also included criminalizing pre-marital sex. But I also remember that the zina thing was kind of wagging the dog, though I don't remember the larger issue they were trying to turn attention away from...

It seems to me AKP is mostly fooling around with the headscarf thing (which nationalist Turks regard as the first step on a slippery slope, can't say I'm too sure that's really true). But if the AKP gets to install one of themselves as Head of the Republic, that person will be appointing judges and univeristy rekt�rs. The rekt�r thing doesn't worry me much, but the judge thing does if they really do have some hidden agenda they're waiting to spring.

But I'm also not sure they're waiting to spring such an agenda-- it often sounds like a lot of paranoia to me as well. On the other hand, if I end up staying here for awhile, I certainly don't want to find out if they do have an Islamist hidden agenda...

Golightly · Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject:

This is what could happen...

The Afghan Daleks are coming to get yoouuu!

yaramaz · Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject:

The AKP are from Kayseri and have a strong base there. I was there for two years. I taught Abdullah Gul's brother in law French. The family seemed pretty sensible. It's not as scary or 'islamic' there as you might imagine. Kayseri is an odd mix of conservative and kemalist. The people I knew there were often religious and traditional but also open minded enough to know that Turkey is secular by law and that trying to get into the EU would be good for trade (Kayseri= major trade centre). There are far more fully covered women in Istanbul than there. I think I saw one lady in black the whole time. You can buy booze there. I can walk down the street there with less harrassment than I'd get in Erenkoy or Beyoglu (aside from the staring). Although I don't prefer an Islamic-leaning party, I can't help but think it wouldn't be as bad as people make it out to be (big scary bogeyman...)

I find the willingness to sacrifice democracy for secularism to be even more scary. hello! Those tanks! Taksim on May Day! That scares me...

lovelace · Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 190

justme · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1944 Location: Istanbul

Yeah, they did. That's what the zina laws were about.

Yaramaz, you make a really good point about sacrificing democracy for secularism. I think I'm paranoid because of the slim chance that it could be like Golightly's picture here.

And also I think about the 'democracy' in America, and what's happening there as a result of a religious regime having power. Okay, it's not burkhas and zina laws, but instead there are schools teaching Intelligent Design as science and a President using public funds to lead his private Crusade because God told him to, crap like that. I'm not really a believer in slippery slopes but I still can't help but wonder what they'll get up to if they can continue this way unchecked....

runeman · Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 124

Talking of 'zina' (adultery), here's Isa's (Jesus') take on the subject, from the 'Sermon on the Mount'-

calsimsek · Joined: 15 Jul 2004 Posts: 775 Location: Ist Turkey

Sorry for getting into this a bit late, but have to make a few quike comments.

1. Most of us so called old timers were here for the last military coup. I'm not sure but I think it was back in 1995-96 when the army asked the then RP - DYP to stand down and DYP joined in with ANAP to form a minority gov't that soon went to the polls.

2. I'm sorry Ollie, but the AKP are a consevative right wing business friendly gov't. They have done next to nothing for the poor sods who voted them in. Infact the rich have got richer over the last five years. The stock market has boomed, loan rates are down and exports are up. Voters who should be supporting left of center econmic concepts are voting for party that looks out for the $ more than the people.

Golightly · Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject:

Personally, I think Turkish politics is still far too paternalistic - almost the idea that any given political party is part of the family, your abi or amca as it were. And of course, you should trust abi or amca to make the right decisions and do the right thing, and you just have to turn a blind eye when they don't. Political parties are far too clannish, and the electorate aren't wary or cynical enough to see through the Boga boku.
Then again, Turkey is still a young country in terms of being a parliamentary democracy, and still has a long way to go in achieving a synthesis between a system that balances the needs of a 21st century country and a culture that has always been dominated by singular, paternalistic, autocratic and occasionally theocratic figures.