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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: Topic |
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Please stick to the topic and avoid inappropriate and off-topic comments.
If not, the thread will no longer be available. |
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blateson
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: |
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I can understand the occasional desire to be fully armed whether abroad or not. Who knows, maybe the guy is actually well trained and studied with the use and non-use of weapons.
In particular, some dogs in Taiwan have been the absolute worst I've seen in the world. (note I said some). I've been out walking around both in upscale neighborhoods and forested areas and have been viciously confronted by dogs, barely escaping. On a walk through some foothills, on more than one occasion, a group of dogs got very nasty on me for no other reason than I was outnumbered and all alone. These dogs were full size, stocky, and nasty. I was high up on a hill and at the top of a very steep set of stairs. The hair on their backs was standing straight up and it was all teeth and growling. One dog would swoop in and nearly bite me, as I fended him off with backpack and camera tripod another would come in from the other side. I had to back down the very steep steps. This was one of the most awful situations I've ever been in. At a time like that, I really wished I had a gun. And on that note, I'd really like to know why Taiwan is the only place I've been that has some awful dogs. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Zhanglang wrote: |
| You say Taiwan is safer and you have nothing to worry about? |
Yes, and I stand by that claim. Foreigners in Taiwan are largely outside mainstream Taiwanese society. The locals regard us with everything from disinterest to curiousity. The worst crime any foreigner has to worry about is property theft, and I fail to see how carrying a knife will help prevent that from happening.
| Zhanglang wrote: |
If you compare Taiwan's National Police Administration homicide statistics to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, you'll find Taiwan has non-gun murder rates in excess of the our (US) TOTAL murder rate.  |
Can you provide a link? I did a quick online search and found figures that appear to indicate otherwise.
According to the United States Department of Justice the number of murders in Taiwan in 1991 per 10 000 people was 0.87.
According to the same source, the number of murders in the United States in 1991 per 1 000 people was .1
Mind you, these figures are for 1991, so I would be interested in having a look at your source. |
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Zhanglang
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
According to the United States Department of Justice the number of murders in Taiwan in 1991 per 10 000 people was 0.87.
According to the same source, the number of murders in the United States in 1991 per 1 000 people was .1
Mind you, these figures are for 1991, so I would be interested in having a look at your source. |
.87 > .1 by almost 9 fold.
If that is what your source says, then that confirms what I posted. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Zhanglang wrote: |
| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
According to the United States Department of Justice the number of murders in Taiwan in 1991 per 10 000 people was 0.87.
According to the same source, the number of murders in the United States in 1991 per 1 000 people was .1
Mind you, these figures are for 1991, so I would be interested in having a look at your source. |
.87 > .1 by almost 9 fold.
If that is what your source says, then that confirms what I posted. |
No, it doesn't. Read the post again. USA figures are per 1000 people. Taiwan figures are per 10 000 people. In other words:
USA: 1 per 10 000
Taiwan: .87 per 10 000
And these figures are for total number of homicides. |
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Zhanglang
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Here are the statistics I made my prior post base upon.
US TOTAL homicide rate 5.70 per 1,000
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm
Taiwan non-gun homicide rate 7.15 per 1,000
http://www.moi.gov.tw/W3/xmoi1hh.htm
Just pointing out that guns don't kill people; people kill people. Taiwan is a nice place, but it's not automatically going to be safer than the US just because they have strict gun laws. You'll find just the opposite in most countries like this with strict laws. These laws only keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. |
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Zhanglang
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
No, it doesn't. Read the post again. USA figures are per 1000 people. Taiwan figures are per 10 000 people. In other words:
USA: 1 per 10 000
Taiwan: .87 per 10 000
And these figures are for total number of homicides. |
That number is actually for 'murder' and not homicide. Homicide statistics include murder, voluntary manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter. That's probably where the discrepancy lies. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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This link doesn't work, but I did look around the MOI website and found stats for all violent offences. Unfortunately, the number for violent offences does not indicate if that is the actual number, or based upon a percentage of the population. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For now at least. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Zhanglang wrote: |
| That number is actually for 'murder' and not homicide. Homicide statistics include murder, voluntary manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter. That's probably where the discrepancy lies. |
My bad. The sources say "murder". I was the one who said homicide. |
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Zhanglang
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| Zhanglang wrote: |
| That number is actually for 'murder' and not homicide. Homicide statistics include murder, voluntary manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter. That's probably where the discrepancy lies. |
My bad. The sources say "murder". I was the one who said homicide. |
An easy to make mistake. The only reason I knew off the top of my head was because Taiwan, the Philippines, and Japan are commonly used examples in gun control debates, as they have had increasing crime rates after strict gun laws were implemented. It's rather pointless to debate on a forum though. I doubt we will get any laws changed here. |
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Zhanglang
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| blateson wrote: |
| I can understand the occasional desire to be fully armed whether abroad or not. Who knows, maybe the guy is actually well trained and studied with the use and non-use of weapons. |
I do train to fight and am a practiced marksman, but that's the extent of it.
| blateson wrote: |
| In particular, some dogs in Taiwan have been the absolute worst I've seen in the world. (note I said some). I've been out walking around both in upscale neighborhoods and forested areas and have been viciously confronted by dogs, barely escaping. On a walk through some foothills, on more than one occasion, a group of dogs got very nasty on me for no other reason than I was outnumbered and all alone. These dogs were full size, stocky, and nasty. I was high up on a hill and at the top of a very steep set of stairs. The hair on their backs was standing straight up and it was all teeth and growling. One dog would swoop in and nearly bite me, as I fended him off with backpack and camera tripod another would come in from the other side. I had to back down the very steep steps. This was one of the most awful situations I've ever been in. At a time like that, I really wished I had a gun. And on that note, I'd really like to know why Taiwan is the only place I've been that has some awful dogs. |
Yes, this is something else that I've thought about that I didn't really care to mention. I enjoy hiking and geocaching and once had a bad experience with a wild boar. I'm sure wild dogs, bears, and pigs are not things you come across often in Taiwan, but again, I rather be safe than sorry. I'm glad at least someone here understands where I'm coming from. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| It's not a case of understanding your POV. It's just that concealed weapons are illegal and if you use a weapon on anything other than a dog, you'll be in for huge trouble on several levels. We're not (at least I'm not) arguing from an anti-gun perspective, just one that is informed by years of life here. You'd be wise to take at least some of the advice offered here to heart. |
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Zhanglang
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
I said: No concealed weapons. That's fact. Not opinion. I've lived here for years, speak and read Chinese to a high level and have had direct experience with the laws and courts here.
But you go right ahead and bring your weapons.
I hate trying to convince noobs, especially those who aren't even here yet. You know everything, man. Teach me.  |
Ok, consider this your first lesson. 第一课. I was so convinced you were wrong, and after talking with my wife that confirmed many places sell knives and her own family carries knives in Taiwan, I wrote an email yesterday to try and find the law. Today, I received a mail with an attached announcement from the Ministry of the Interior police station concerning knives and banned weapons. Carrying a knife is in fact ok. There is a list of prohibited knife-like weapons, and prohibited locations, but these are very similar to US laws. Without counting, I believe there are 14 or 15 types of illegal or controlled knives, such as switchblades, butterfly knives, brass knuckles w/ blade, knives with serrated blades, as well as some other types I would never think to carry on my person, like samurai swords, projectile weapons, icepicks, and pen knives. Some of these I listed are only prohibited to carry on your body; many of them can be legally used for commemoration or decorating in the home. So I guess I'll still be buying a nice buck knife to carry after I get there. |
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myesl
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Luckily not in China.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| It has nothing to do with feeling tough. It has everything to do with feeling safe. I've trained jiujitsu since 2000 and have a few amateur fights under my belt, but I also carry a glock 27. |
"It has nothing to do with being tough, but let me tell you how tough I am . . ."
| Quote: |
| This is the way I see it. A much higher percent of the population will be a victim of a violent crime in their lifetime than will be in a serious car accident. |
It may be the way you "see it", but it's not the way the actual statistics see it.
| Quote: |
| I don't look for trouble. I would like to think I'm pretty cultured and have reached a pretty high position in society. This doesn't ensure safety. My house has been broken into twice and I have been robbed at knife point once. These are things that could happen to anyone. |
No. They couldn't. I am nearly 40 and have never had my house or my person robbed in the US. As a champion martial artist once told me, "Self-defense is not being dumb enough to go into bad neighborhoods looking for trouble."
Dangerousapple has summed it up well.
| Quote: |
There is no such thing as a one-on-one fight in Taiwan. If you start something, you will end up with an entire room (or street) full of people enjoying the opportunity to beat up a foreigner. It doesn't matter what kind of training you have or what kind of shape you are in. If you have a heightened need for security you may react more aggressively than the situation should warrant, and you will get hurt.
The vast majority of Taiwanese are non-confrontational, but that small minority just sits and waits for any opportunity to get into something.
I've been here 12 years and have had my share of trouble. Almost all of it happened in my first two years when I didn't understand how to handle conflict the Taiwanese way. |
Taiwan is not a nation of laws and many people are tolerant of foreigners on the surface only. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Zhanglang wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
I said: No concealed weapons. That's fact. Not opinion. I've lived here for years, speak and read Chinese to a high level and have had direct experience with the laws and courts here.
But you go right ahead and bring your weapons.
I hate trying to convince noobs, especially those who aren't even here yet. You know everything, man. Teach me. |
Ok, consider this your first lesson. 第一课. I was so convinced you were wrong, and after talking with my wife that confirmed many places sell knives and her own family carries knives in Taiwan, I wrote an email yesterday to try and find the law. Today, I received a mail with an attached announcement from the Ministry of the Interior police station concerning knives and banned weapons. Carrying a knife is in fact ok. There is a list of prohibited knife-like weapons, and prohibited locations, but these are very similar to US laws. Without counting, I believe there are 14 or 15 types of illegal or controlled knives, such as switchblades, butterfly knives, brass knuckles w/ blade, knives with serrated blades, as well as some other types I would never think to carry on my person, like samurai swords, projectile weapons, icepicks, and pen knives. Some of these I listed are only prohibited to carry on your body; many of them can be legally used for commemoration or decorating in the home. So I guess I'll still be buying a nice buck knife to carry after I get there. |
You're teaching me nothing but a lesson in exasperation. You found what is known as a loophole, likely put there to allow people who need knives for their vocation.
You haven't spent more than a month at a time visiting this place. People with years of experience have been telling you that you won't need a weapon and that having one and using it here will open a huge Pandora's box of trouble for you. You refuse to listen, stubbornly trying to find a way to carry a concealed weapon on you to satisfy your own irrational personal security paranoia.
A Chinese will not fight you unless he outnumbers you and is armed. Your knife will only bring down more pain on your head and legal complications later. But don't listen. Don't come here and learn. Do what you will. I'm done with this thread. |
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